p2pnet - rss feed: The Kylee case and the RIAA
p2pnet.net news view:- I run p2pnet from Vancouver Island off the west coast of British Columbia in Canada and I’m under legal attack by Nikki Hemming, who runs the multi-million-dollar Kazaa file sharing application, owned by Australia’s Sharman Networks.
She wrongly accuses me of libel and with the pro bono help of well-known Canadian media lawyer Dan Burnett, I’m fighting the allegation, which I take as a direct attack on freedom of speech. But with Canadian civil cases expected to last more than a week or two, as mine is, it might not be until next year that I get to talk to a jury of 12 other ordinary people, a few of whom may also be bloggers and as such, could one day find themselves in the same boat as me ——- unless and until Canada’s ancient, and I do mean ancient, defamation laws are changed.
It’ll be interesting, to say the least, and when my case at last reaches court, will the heavyweight lawyers who are against me want to depose my daughter, Emma, 10, in the same way the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) is using other lawyers to go after its victims?
As part of its attack on Tanya Andersen, 43, a disabled mother living off medical benefits in Oregon and who’s accused of being an illegal online file sharing distributor of copyrighted music, Warner Music, EMI, Vivendi Universal and Sony BMG’s RIAA wants to interrogate her daughter, Kylee, who’s only 10. And it’ll be allowed.
Canada’s Edgar Bronfman, jr, chairman and ceo of the Warner Music Group, one of the Big 4 labels, recently admitted his own seven children, “stole music“. So will the RIAA want to depose them as well? It’s doubtful. But there’s absolutely no question that Kylee will have to undergo being grilled by an RIAA legal team.
They wanted her face-to-face, but a judge ruled they can only question her by phone. It could be worse, you say. But he also decided he won’t allow a break while a question is being put.
Will Emma become a victim like Kylee Andersen? Never happen, you say. But who’d have thought they’d be allowed to examine Kylee under any circumstance? And who’d have thought Sharman Network would’ve wanted to sue tiny and cash-strapped p2pnet?
And who’d have believed Warner Music, EMI, Vivendi Universal and Sony BMG would actually go after their own customers year after year?
But it’s happening.
‘This IS a child we are talking about, not a little adult’
I subscribe to an online list which includes as members a lot of lawyers, entertainment industry (corporate and independent both) and media types of all persuasions, as well as ordinary people such as me.
Last week the Kylee case came up and during it, I said:
I have a 10-year-old daughter and I don’t believe any child of her age should be exposed to this kind of proceeding. No matter how careful lawyers may be, they’re there to do a job, with all that implies. The experience will be frightening for a kid, and there’s no way around it. xxx (a list member) says, “This IS a child we are talking about, not a little adult. Children DO get special treatment in society, for many very good reasons.” And that’s the way it should be. Children must be protected from this kind of thing, not exposed to it.
Another poster, a lawyer, said:
If it were my daughter I would want her to testify. I strongly believe in the justice system and that to me is a more compelling reason than protecting my child from a frightening experience. IMHO, children learn and grow from experiences like this…
A third, someone involved with p2p applications, said:
Fair enough. But your daughter has a benefit of a parent who can make it a constructive learning experience. I wouldn’t like to live the rest of my life knowing that my stupidity when I was ten years old has brought a financial ruin upon my family over some dumb downloading issue. I would much rather prefer to have someone tell me in advance that the justice system is actually about law, not about justice, and that you have to learn to keep your mouth shut when talking to the lawyers.
That would be a bit early for my taste, but Hey, it would be a growing and learning experience nonetheless. Not sure though if this is the learning experience that you had in mind… :-)’
In two later posts, “Still… what the RIAA and the people who pay for them etc really need to realise, is that every time they do something like this, the whole internet lights up like a Christmas tree - bloggers, diggers, forums, mailing lists like these etc etc,” said a member of the independent music industry. “It provokes a kind of Orwellian Web 2.0 hate session. It is absolutely the very worst publicity that money can buy.
“I mean the Sony rootkit fiasco was a PR disaster - but it was only embarrassing. All it provoked was a bit of mockery and derision and life went on regardless. The RIAA has managed to make itself quite literally hated. That’s not good.”
But, “I don’t think it hurts them, I think it helps them,” said someone else, a writer.
“The RIAA is acting as a lightning rod to protect the member labels. Every time there is a PR disaster for the RIAA that means a PR disaster has been averted for it’s constituents.”
“I strongly believe in the justice system”
The points are well made. Interesting arguments. But they’re academic and meanwhile, a child is at very real risk.
Kylee will certainly be grilled, and that is the correct word, by RIAA-paid lawyers. By phone, in person, it doesn’t matter. She has no understanding any of this and she’ll be terrified of accidentally saying something which could get her (completely innocent) mother into even more trouble and no matter what the outcome, the experience will stay with her for the rest of her life.
The lawyer I quoted above said, “I strongly believe in the justice system.”
I understand exactly what she means, I know she honestly believes what she says, and from what I can tell of of her from seeing her posts on the list, I’d be happy to have her represent me.
But in civil cases such as the sue ‘em all lawsuits, at least, the so-called justice system falls flat on its face, and has been seen to do so over and over again.
The law is weighted towards the person, entity or entities with the most money. And that means the Big 4.
However, Tanya and Kylee have something going for them the labels don’t have. Goodwill.
“The RIAA has managed to make itself quite literally hated. That’s not good.”
No, it isn’t, and although Tanya and Kylee and their lawyer, Lory Lybeck, may not have a massive support team behind them, their case is now being carefully watched by millions of people around the world, many of them citizen journalists with their own media outlets.
The RIAA was looking for an opportunity with Kylee, but instead, it’s now hoist on its own petard.
Lory Lybeck may be only one man, but he’ll be watching and listening like a hawk and if the RIAA makes even the slightest wrong move ……..
‘I am extremely worried about this situation with my daughter’
The RIAA and its masters lost this battle a long time ago and are now merely going through the motions, at the expense of people such as the Andersens, mother and daughter, and thousands of other innocent families like them .
The labels need guaranteed revenue streams, not bits and pieces they have to fight for, tooth and nail. Will this be achieved through licensing deals where ISPs do the collecting on behalf of Big Music, or will it come through some other means?
EMI (Britain), Vivendi Universal (France), Sony BMG (Japan and Germany) and Warner Music (US) have a once-in-this-lifetime opportunity. All they need do is acknowledge they’re now operating in the digital 21st century, marketing easily and inexpensively distributed digital product; and, that henceforth, they’ll woo instead of sue online music lovers.
If they do that, the negatives will be eliminated and a staggeringly huge base of old and new’consumers’ will once again be available to them, almost instantly.
And traumatised parents such as Tanya won’t have to say:
This has been going on now for two and a half years and has turned my life upside down.
It continues to be a huge source of stress and chaos in my life. I certainly don’t feel like a free human being at this point because it just continues to go on and on - it doesn’t seem to matter what proof I give them or what questions I’ve answered for them.
Recently, I moved. Within one month of living in my new residence, I got word that these people were calling my apartment manager to verify I lived here and wanted to serve a subpoena. Come to find out, they were trying to serve my daughter.
This was extremely frightening to me, not to mention embarrassing and humiliating.
I am extremely worried about this situation with my daughter.
I can’t help but wonder why the RIAA feels it’s okay to continue going after a person who has not done what they are accusing. I constantly wonder why this is allowed to be happening? I wonder how the people who are planning on doing the deposition would feel if this was their child and someone was doing the same?
Jon Newton - p2pnet
If your Net access is blocked by government restrictions, try Psiphon from the Citizen Lab at thIs the end (of the Net) nigh?zze University of Toronto’s Munk Centre for International Studies. Go here for the official download, here for the p2pnet download, and here for details. And if you’re Chinese and you’re looking for a way to access independent Internet news sources, try Freegate, the DIT program written to help Chinese citizens circumvent web site blocking outside of China. Download it here.
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Tired of being treated like a criminal? They depend on you, not the other way around. Don’t buy their ‘product’. Do bug your local politicians. Use emails, snail-mail, phone calls, faxes, IM, stop them in the street, blog. And if you’re into organizing, organize petitions, organize demonstrations and then turn up on your local political rep’s doorstep, making sure you’ve contacted your local tv/radio station/newspaper in advance. Don’t just complain. Do something!
April 4th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
The MPAA and RIAA are criminal organizations which exploit children and corrupt minds. They are not only just as bad as child molesters, they ARE CHILD MOLESTERS. Much of their content is sexually charge, and there is quit a bit that actually promotes sexual contact - even with children.
I wonder how Kylee will feel if she says something that will enable these monsters to steal every penny her mother has. If that happens, it will haunt her the rest of her life. It would thrill me to no end to see some crazy go in to the RIAA, MPAA and their lawyers’ offices with a weapon and kill every one of them. That is what quite a few people believe should happen to child molesters. I would consider doing that very thing if these monsters went after my kids.
I hope the bastard RIAA and MPAA lawyers monitoring this site reads this comment. I want them to know that I am teaching as many people that I can about peer to peer software, and how to use it to get content. Someone needs to make an example out of this industry by destroying it. If that happens, maybe other unethical businesses will reconsider their practices. My hope is that these child molesters do not get a single penny for their crap. I also hope that their studios go OUT OF BUSINESS, and I am doing my part to see that it happens. I also hope that Jon clears hius usage logs as well so that some innocent proxy owner doesn’t get screwed for this comment.
April 4th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
“The RIAA is acting as a lightning rod to protect the member labels. Every time there is a PR disaster for the RIAA that means a PR disaster has been averted for it’s constituents.”
I don’t know about you but when I see RIAA I don’t think of that acronym in any context but the pet lapdog of “it’s constituents”. It means to me there is no doubt about where the directions to act come from or originate from.
That hardly qualifies as an averted PR disaster. Just as the Sony rootkit was the final straw to ensure I would buy no more Sony electronics products because I will never be sure of what is in them, I won’t buy any major label products because of the actions of the RIAA traces right back to the major labels instructions. The RIAA is not sharing in any revenues from these infringements with the artists by filtering them back to the major labels. Instead they are using the financial gain to fuel more cases. The original funding you can be sure in some form came from the major labels themselves. Either through contributions to the lapdog or through the lack of collections to allow them to keep the funds to continue.
Any lightning strike of bad publicity is directly reflective of the majors. If some how they believe that some front organization shields them from repercussions by the potential customer, they are sadly mistaken.
The sue’em alls are directing the ill will of past customers and a whole new generation which will turn into non-customers for a lifetime. Weighing this $3000-$5000 dollar infringement income against the potential $20,000 or more lifetime spending income is a poor bargain businesswise and will hasten the demise of the major labels. With their present attitude and actions, that is a good thing to happen.
April 4th, 2007 at 4:09 pm
Each year, fewer and fewer people buy media cartel crap. Just take a visit to the record stores to see what I’m talking about. I know that I do. I have even placed labels on some CD’s telling people how to get the music free. I will be redesigning the labels to let people know that every penny they spend on records assist in child molestation. I only have to come up with a catchy way of wording it so that it will be credible in the eyes of the customer.
I am not one for reforming the current media cartels. I’m for DESTROYING them!!! They have corrupted entire generations with their smut. Now that they have a little competition, they resort to extortion, bullying, and child molestation. Reform is not good enough. Decent people would like to see child molesters dead or locked up for life. Since the R.I.A.A. and it masters are child molesting organizations, they deserve to be disbanded.
I love “pirates,” and for whatever reason they choose to download instead of buying, they are doing the world and its children a public service. This includes the “piracy” of family films and music as well. Starve the majors of every single cent because even money gained from “family entertainment” is being used to finance the CHILD MOLESTERS” activities. Anyone want to help me come up with a convincing message that can be placed on CD packages the tell potential customers how their money is being used to support CHILD MOLESTATION???
April 4th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
I wonder how many pedophiles will enjoy watching that. This sick, disgusting industry needs to die!!! Other movies such as “Pretty Baby” shows a 12 years old Brooke Shields stark naked. In that film she plays a child prostitute. People wonder why someone wouldn’t want their 10 years old daughter talking to media cartel lawyers? I would trust my child with one of these lawyers as much as I would trust her with John Couey (Murderer and rapist of Jessica Lundsford)
April 5th, 2007 at 7:30 am
“Would you want your 10 year old son/daughter subjected to torture at the hands of a group of high paied lawyers?” “By buying this CD you are finantially contributing to this and meny other perversions of the legal system”
Hows that?
April 5th, 2007 at 9:03 am
” Hows that? ”
Simple.
Every RIAA label CD purchased puts money in the LABELS
pocket.
Contrary to propogandist beliefs, almost none of that money
ever reaches an artist.
This money is then used to hire legal teams to come up
with brilliant legal strategies, such as suing the dead, suing
people who never had a computer, etc ….
Buy independent NON-RIAA music, or buy second hand CD’s
and run their financial river dry …
Sage advice, don’t you think ?
April 5th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
The RIAA reminds me of a dinosaur, species soon to be extinct, stuck in a tar pit and mindlessly clawing at and killing anything within it’s reach before it gets sucked under and dies. It makes no sense at all to have lawyers grilling 10 year old kids, not when there are thousands and thousands of 20 something file shares out there who they could prosecute. I agree with a previous poster, stop thinking of ways to help this vicious beast out of the tar pit and let it die. Music was here before the RIAA, it will be here when they are gone.
April 5th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
I’m the writer who calls the media cartel Child Molesters. I call the cartel child molesters simply because they are!!! Years ago before the sue them all campaign was begun, I actually hoped that some kind of compensation could be worked out for the creators of popular content.
I was truly hoping that the cartels would make about 25 to 35 cents song that was bought over the internet. I would have been willing to pay this price for music that I like. However, this is no longer the case. I DON’T want them to receive a SINGLE CENT for any of their stuff. I truly hope that “piracy” puts the media cartel out of business. You see where I go to church, they actually pointed out, how much illicit sex, violence, blasphemy, drug use, and other filth was being promoted by what is called entertainment today. In addition, when I see these crooks go after a little girl simply because her mother wants to prove her innocence, that was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
You see most Republican organizations and even the Christian Coalition side with the entertainment cartel and against file sharers. They typically believe the industry line that file sharers are thieves and criminals. This is simply not true. I do agree with them that file sharing is destroying their business. That is because they refuse to change with the times and set up a new business model for doing things. In my opinion, this stubborn refusal to change with the times is a good thing. It will hopefully destroy an industry that helps corrupt people around the world. The media cartel is the devil’s favorite tool, and I, for the life of me, cannot see why the Christian Coalition, the Democratic Party, and the Republican party are so happy to support it.
I’m even considering canceling my satellite subscription to starve them even more. I already no longer buy or rent CD’s, DVD’s or tapes. I no longer go to the theater either. I used to buy about 3 CD’s a month from the record labels as well as rent movies every other day. Now, I do neither. If someone else rents something I want to see, I will copy it, or I will lend a copy to them if I have something they want to see. I will also trade movies and music on a private wireless network.
In fact, I encourage all college students to set up such networks. They are very inexpensive and easy to set up, and they are notoriously difficult for the sue them all people to find and detect. They can be set up anonymously so that all ip’s assigned will not have a user name associated with them. All that is needed to set up such a files haring network is a laptop computer and a wireless router. It doesn’t have to be connected to the Internet. An entire dormatory can be on the network, and when someone introduces a new file, it can be distributed to everyone else. In many cases, people can watch a movie long before it hits the local movie house, and do it for free. This can be done outside of the remote detection ability of the media cartel.
With such a network, the media cartel will not only have to physically send out someone to the area where local file sharing is occurring, they will also have to find a way of matching ip and mac addresses to each computer as well as the user behind the computer. Mac addresses can be easily changed and there is no record or logs to grab. The Media cartel will have to actually physically catch people in the act before they can take any legal action.
I’m all for file sharing and I will teach people about it. I don’t care where they are liberal or conservative. I see an equal proportion of both doing it. The only difference is that the conservatives in general think file sharing is wrong. It is not. It is a community service.
April 5th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
You’re making some pretty wild allegations. What is your proof? If the RIAA really is somehow involved in child molestation, don’t advertise it here, bring your proof to the police or the FBI or whatever law enforcement officials are in your country. child molestation is a serious crime.
Further, placing derogatory labels on CDs you haven’t purchased is considered defacing and more than likely could land you in jail or liable for damages. While the clerk might not care, if the store owner caught you it could be bad for you.
There are much better ways to voice your complaints than to engage in illegal activities that don’t really hurt the organization you’re targetting. The person that will be hurt is the record store owner who may not be able to sell his legal wares.
I fully support the Jon and his support of those who are being targetted by the RIAA. The one thing that we want to do is to sway public opinion in our favor. Certainly engaging in flagrantly illegal activities will only cause derision in the public arena.
April 5th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
“You’re making some pretty wild allegations. What is your proof? If the RIAA really is somehow involved in child molestation, don’t advertise it here, bring your proof to the police or the FBI or whatever law enforcement officials are in your country. child molestation is a serious crime.”
My proof is the court records giving the RIAA permission to depose a little girl now 10, who was 7 at the time of alleged infringement. My proof is in the song, “Me so Horny,” in which part of the lyrick say, “I’d fuck my own child.” Yes, songs like this are promoted by the record companies.
Both instances meet the dictionary definition of molest: 1. To disturb, interfere with, or annoy. 2. To subject to unwanted or improper sexual activity. I could go on and on about why and how these people are child molesters. If you include the movie industry, watch the movie, “pretty Baby” (A stark naked 12 year old girl acting as a child prostitute meets child pornography definition) and Hound Dog (12 year old raped) when it comes out. Yes, these monsters are child molesters, no the FBI isn’t even remotely interested in going after them. The media cartel is a multi-billion dollar industry.
“Further, placing derogatory labels on CDs you haven’t purchased is considered defacing and more than likely could land you in jail or liable for damages. While the clerk might not care, if the store owner caught you it could be bad for you.”
I totally agree with you here. It is defacing. If one gets caught, one could be liable and sent to jail. We are supposed to live in a land that is ruled by law. Unfortunately, the law is only selectively enforced, and only the rich or those who are lucky enough to get pro-bono lawyers have access to the court system. In the Police States of Amerika, we live under a system of fascist anarchy where the law and (much of the time) the court system is manipulated soley for the purpose of those with extreme amounts of money - the constitution or rights guaranteed by it be damned. It was mass disobedience that brought down the brutal rule of the Soviet era, and it will be mass disobedience that will bring down the rule of the cartels. What I use is very easily removed. However the clerk or proprietor must see the label to remove it.
There are much better ways to voice your complaints than to engage in illegal activities that don’t really hurt the organization you’re targetting. The person that will be hurt is the record store owner who may not be able to sell his legal wares.
How? Despite all of the internet campaigns, there are still people walking in to buy CD’S and DVD’s from the stores. Yes, I know that they are free to do so, but I wonder that if they were informed of choices, would they decide to exercise them? But maybe you are right. Some kind of other guerilla advertising can be made to reach the people who don’t use the Internet to get information. As far as the record store owner is concerned, the owner is usually a multi billion dollar corporation. I wouldn’t do this to an independent store. You see, that is the problem, the chain record store is part of the industry that is selling the corruption.
Maybe I wouldn’t be so pissed off if they weren’t trying to intimidate little girls who they cannot obviously believe were involved in infringement. I have little respect or tolerance for child molesters or bullies. These people are both. Boycotting a multi-billion dollar industry rarely works, especially industries that act like the mob.
April 5th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
so, will they be using waterboarding on her, or just yelling until she cries and says what they want her to say?
April 5th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
“How? Despite all of the internet campaigns, there are still people walking in to buy CD’S and DVD’s from the stores. Yes, I know that they are free to do so, but I wonder that if they were informed of choices, would they decide to exercise them? But maybe you are right. Some kind of other guerilla advertising can be made to reach the people who don’t use the Internet to get information. As far as the record store owner is concerned, the owner is usually a multi billion dollar corporation. I wouldn’t do this to an independent store. You see, that is the problem, the chain record store is part of the industry that is selling the corruption. ”
The first part of your reply only clarifies what the parent poster is saying; file sharing is not having effect on record sales or movie sales, so further participation for the express purpose of destroying the industry is pointless.
Besides, no matter how much you tell everybody about the actions of the RIAA and the MPAA, most people will not care. We live amongst an extremely apathetic population, the majority of which don’t even vote. If you tell potential customers why they should not purchase material, simply because the companies that make or promote it are dishonest, that doesn’t stop the majority of informed people from purchasing anyway. We live in a culture of instant gratification; as long as people get what they want, they couldn’t care less how it came to them.
For example, most (if not a majority) of my college peers feel that the drinking age should be 18 and not 21, yet you don’t see any rallying of college students in the United States to repeal this limit. Most just either drink illegally or not at all. People want quick short-term solutions to their problems that can be “solved” easily, as opposed to long-term solutions that require a lot of time and effort to come to fruition.
April 6th, 2007 at 6:37 am
Your posts are so true. That is why the current label I place on CD’s tell about LimeWire, Bittorrent and other such file sharing programs. People either love being screwed by major corporations and government, or like you say, they are too damned lazy to do anything about it. I got turned onto filesharing and free programming when I got tired of being ripped off and started looking for alternatives. Had I heard about some of these programs earlier, I would have used them earlier. I never have used Napster, Kazaa, or many others. However, I started with Gnutella and the Bittorrent protocols when I l;earned how easy it was to avoid being ripped off. I started using these protocols when visiting website that required the use of these protocols to download some of their content.
I guess that is a good way to promote file sharing, by posting content on websites that require peer to peer file sharing to download.
April 8th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
There is no telling what an industry that thrives on the promotion of illicit sex, drugs, and violence will do if they were allowed. These thugs have the ethics of a serial killer. I would let my kid near them regardless of what the courts say.