US student group wants guns in school
p2pnet news | Freedom:- Some US students, alarmed by violence on campuses, think they may have the answer,
More guns.
Mike Guzman, “and thousands of other students,” say it’s the best way to say the best way to prevent campus bloodshed, says Associated Press, going on:
“Guzman, an economics major at Texas State University-San Marcos, is among 8,000 students nationwide who have joined the nonpartisan Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, arguing that students and faculty already licensed to carry concealed weapons should be allowed to pack heat along with their textbooks.”
“It’s the basic right of self defense,” said Guzman, a 23-year-old former Marine. “Here on campus, we don’t have that right, that right of self defense.”
Every state but Illinois and Wisconsin allows people, “some form of concealed handgun carrying rights, with 36 states issuing permits to most everyone who meets licensing criteria.,” says the story. “The precise standards vary from state to state, but most require an applicant to be at least 21 and to complete formal instruction on use of force.”
Now, “We demand action,” says the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus web site, stating:
Students in Universities all over America are licensed to carry concealed weapons.
But when we step foot on our campuses we must be unarmed.
Too many have been murdered, raped, robbed and beaten on our campuses!
Enough is enough!
Allow the CCW holders on our campuses to protect ourselves and those around us!
But, “Many states forbid license-holders from carrying weapons on school campuses, while in states where the decision is left to the universities, schools almost always prohibit it,” says AP. “Utah is the only state that expressly allows students to carry concealed weapons on campus.”
SCCC supporters last month staged a demonstration aimed at focusing attention on their demands.
It was called the Empty Holster Protest and, “participating students and faculty at over 110 colleges and universities throughout America” wore wear empty holsters on campus, “in protest of state laws and school policies that stack the odds in favor of armed killers by disarming law abiding citizens licensed to carry concealed handguns virtually everywhere else (movie theaters, office buildings, shopping malls, etc)”.
The “symbolic point” was to, “represent that students, faculty, and guests on college campuses are left defenseless (with nothing but empty holsters) by state laws and school policies that refuse to afford concealed handgun license holders the same rights on college campuses that they are afforded virtually everywhere else,” says the site.
AP has W. Gerald Massengill, the chairman of the independent panel that investigated the Virginia Tech shootings and the ex-head of the Virginia state police, saying, “I’m a strong supporter of the Second Amendment.”But our society has changed, and there are some environments where common sense tells us that it’s just not a good idea to have guns available.”
He’s echoed by Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, who says campus safety concerns cannot be addressed by adding more guns to campuses, says AP.
Says SCCC on its site:
Who is more willing to compromise—groups like Students for Concealed Carry on Campus who support licensed concealed carry or groups like The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence who oppose licensed concealed carry?
AP doesn’t say whether or not the National Rifle Association and its official spokesman, actor Charleton Heston, are providing support for the SCCC.
Stay tuned.
Also See:
Associated Press – Student group wants more guns on campus, November 21, 2007
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November 21st, 2007 at 7:45 am
Now THAT is an answer to the problem of overstressed people snapping and bringing guns on campus to shoot the place up…ALLOW guns on campus and INCREASE the stress everybody will be under because people are packing!
This was a lame-as-fuck idea back when the Gross Old Parasites pushed for it in congress…and it is STILL an unbelievably-insane idea now that the Gay Only Pedophiles are using student astroturf to push for public acceptance.
Just think: how many fist-fights have YOU seen in school during your life? Now give everybody involved a gun, and the total inability to aim worth shit. Hope you like your kids coming home with bullet holes.
Seriously, anybody who is FOR flooding our testosterone-laden society with MORE uncontrolled firearms should be shot…and should VOLUNTEER for the experience. Like the pro Iraq occupation Neanderthals: talk to me about it when you have BEEN THERE!
November 21st, 2007 at 8:26 am
The scariest thing for a bad guy is to encounter a good guy with a gun.
Bill: I’m a gun owner and I believe we should have MORE guns in society. Would you like to come to my home and shoot me? I thought as much …. Neither do the bad guys.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:55 am
The US Supreme court announced a few days ago that they would take up a case to decide if the contitutional right to bear arms was a right to be had at home too.
They may as well add to “home” school, on the job, while shopping, wile at the bar, while on airplanes, while on ships, while at the hospita… everywhere.
The truth is that the US Constitution was written by a people wiithout sound mental faculties. They though slavery was, like havig guns, wonderful too.
November 21st, 2007 at 9:56 am
I don’t think everyone having a gun will solve the problem.
It’s probably better for the schools to invest in more security and increase awareness about rapest and teach everyone self-defense as a maditory first year course.
November 21st, 2007 at 10:43 am
Why did the killings at VATech happen?
The Virginia Citizens’ Defense League (VCDL) lobbied for two years to get the General Assembly in Richmond to understand that allowing the college to disarm students who, by all current state laws, would otherwise have been able to carry a gun they were in fact, inviting disaster. As a matter of fact, one over paid college bureaucrat said…well, let me just do a bit of cut and paste from just one of the articles I read…
Hincker congratulated Virginia’s General Assembly for killing the bill, writing, “…this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors ***feel safe*** on campus.” Gun-banning policies are all about feeling safe – not being safe.
Emphasis “***” is mine.
Anyplace in the WORLD that you take guns from the law abiding folks you are inviting the government (or some entity or someone) to over the folks that have been disarmed.
God save us from our stupid selves.
Simply put – it is NOT the gun….GUNS SAVE LIVES!!
November 21st, 2007 at 11:22 am
I’m all for it. Those who call us Neanderthals for wanting to have the ability to protect ourselves should walk unarmed and defenseless down Bankhead Street in Atlanta while wearing a big gold necklace. These same people should only have a cellphone in which to call police. After they are robbed and beaten, the police will be there to clean up the mess, and the robbers will have money for their next drug fix.
In that same environment, these people who call us Neanderthals can find safety in one of the many small businesses which line Bankhead Street. They will find safety INSIDE these businesses simply because the owners and employees are mostly armed. While visiting Atlanta, I did not carry my gun becayse it is against city policy. However, I knew that if there was trouble, all I had to do was make it into one of these small businesses and fall under the protection of my fellow citizens.
Those of you who do not want the common people carrying guns should move to England and be have to chose living in crime infested areas or in areas where there is a police state environment with no privacy. That way, you can choose to be robbed either by street thugs or by the local government (via fines for minor offences caught on camera). I choose to exercise my rights and responsibilities to be able to watch out for my neighbors, my family, and myself. Police are too far away and in many cases too busy to stop crimes in progress in many cases. They come after the crime is committed and then do the paperwork. The victims are still victims. The so called “wild west” was actually much tamer than most major cities of today. Certainly it was much tamer than cities with gun control.
November 21st, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Ron “come to my home and shoot me”, don’t start shit:
I’ll happily encamp two blocks away with LoS to your front porch, from a camo nest, and pick you off with a modified hunting rifle loaded with home-made steel jacket disintegrating rounds and packing a flash suppressor. Unless you are wearing full-body anti shrapnel armor, you are hamburger on the first round.
OR
Wait until 3 am, walk up to your bedroom window in an urban camo poncho with flash-suppressing nightvision goggles. Squirt a circle of incendiary IO3H1 paste on your window, and light it. Then shoot you with a silenced automatic pistol loaded with home made wood epoxy/copper ball rounds (in a 40 magnum round you can easily fit three copper “BB Gun” balls fully within the epoxy sheath, the sheath ruptures on impact with flesh, causing the three balls to then exit the wound point on random trajectories with the majority of the kinetic force of the entire bullet transfered to them).
IN CASE YOU CAN’T GUESS
I have the pistol and ammunition I described for it secreted away but easily accessible. My rifle would take me a couple days to modify. In either case there would be no usable ballistic evidence, and recovery would be easy (thermate-dust charge left behind at the camo blind, or just a backpack under the poncho with a quick-change in it), resulting in minimal chance of capture post-incident.
RESULT
You see Ron (and Bruce Jackson, cyberscan, et all), the problem IS NOT PEOPLE OWNING GUNS. The problem is that the people LIKE ME that know what the fuck we are doing would NOT be the people IN-SITE with the guns. It would be incompetent jackasses that have not evolved past the “Grunk BIG man” stage, who believe a firearm is just a penis extension. At least in the beginning. THEN this INEVITABLY creates an atmosphere of tension in the regulars to the area, so THEY bring guns…not as testosterone poisoned but JUST as incompetent and FAR MORE nervous. Then a Neanderthal waves his dick around when a girl he likes rejects him…and people die. Or a car backfires or door slams nearby, the nervous “just for self protection” guy pulls HIS gun, and people die.
Or somebody like Cho can’t handle the stress, has a psychotic break, and because of too-easy firearms access ends up going on a shooting spree.
NONE of these inevitabilities makes ME feel safe about MY kids going to YOUR gun-toting happyland…and I AM somebody with not only a working knowledge of firearms and their use, but PRACTICAL application of the same. I have SEEN similar situations as the ones I described, when firearms become the new tennis shoes, and what it ALWAYS leads to…and have had to clean up some of the mess (in one case literally).
Guns DON’T kill people…IDIOTS WITH GUNS kill people…and MOST PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS!
WALKING DOWN THE STREET WITH BLING
First off, this is a butt-stupid hypothetical. Might as well dress up as Liberace and hang out at a GOP convention, same thing. Or knock on my front door and try to get me to donate money to Ron Paul. If you MAKE yourself INTO a target, then go to WHERE people will be naturally inclined to target you, you should EXPECT to be targeted! (in the second case, you will be lucky to get away with only being sprayed by my yard hose)
That said, I HAVE done something similar to the “Liberace” hypothetical. Me and a couple friends used to go hit up gay bars, hang out for a while, then fake being drunk and stumble outside into an alley. About a third of the time some redneck piece of shit would try to gay-bash us…and we performed a public service.
In ANY situation the BEST way to ensure your safety is to CONTROL the situation. As soon as you relinquish that control to the people who will be attacking you, you lose your safety. A gun DOES NOT give you control, it ESCALATES the situation. A gun-toting bullyboy trying to mug you in front of his buddies CAN be controlled with a swift punch to the throat, since he has to get close to satisfy his machismo requirements. If he pulls the gun he is admitting he NEEDS the gun to take you. If YOU pull a gun first…you are outnumbered and most likely dead. If not immediately, then when you turn to get away, since you just insulted the “manliness” of the gang-banger by waving your dick in his face.
The ONLY time you will walk into a mugger with a gun ALREADY in play is if they are mugging you because they NEED to, in which case gang-banger machismo does not enter into the situation. The to main reasons FOR such a situation are narcotics withdrawal or its their “night job”. But in EITHER case having a gun on your person will NOT help you! If they SEE they gun, the tweaker will shoot you out of nervous fear, and the night job will TAKE it. If you try and PULL the gun, the tweaker will shoot you out of nervousness, and the night job will shoot you out of self-preservation. In either case just giving the guy what he wants and then turning your back on him is your best chance of survival, since the tweaker will most of the time run away afterwards, and not being able to see where the night job heads to will give him LESS of a reason to shoot you.
GUN VIOLENCE AND GUN CONTROL
Odd….according to the THE FACTS, states with MORE gun control laws have LOWER per capita gun violence rates. It is all summarized in the articles below, complete with reference. So it seems that cyberscan is full of shit (especially since his “pro-gun” argument is that in areas with EASY ACCESS to firearms the crime rate USING them goes up…how the FUCK does this equate to needing MORE guns?!). Its sad, but when looked at objectively the ENTIRE pro-gun argument is obviously fueled by lobbying groups…and maintained by people too intellectually lazy to DO the objective research to see they are being manipulated!
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
http://www.kc3.com/editorial/40reasons.htm
http://www.hpjc.org/issues_guncontrol.html
And these are just three results from the most BASIC of google searches (in other words, I copy/pasted the first three links to come up, lol).
***SUMMARY***
More guns in school = more dead kids, usually killed by other kids.
Most people are idiots, at least where firearms are concerned.
People who KNOW what they are doing, KNOW that idiots should not have guns.
Easy firearms access = idiots who should NOT have guns, GETTING guns.
Best method of AVOIDING violence is to not make yourself a TARGET for violence.
Best method of surviving gang-banger violence is not showing fear, showing a gun just gets you dead.
Best method of surviving a mugging is NOT HAVING A REASON TO BE SHOT!
Pro-gun position is fueled ENTIRELY by gun lobbies, and for political gain rather than public safety.
Hmmmm….in none of the above circumstances does having a gun HELP you.
November 21st, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Usually Rafael Venegas makes a lot of sense but in this case you’ve let your disdain for the “current” government cloud your thinking. In 1776 and thereabouts the entire world believed in slavery. You can’t judge people except against the canvas of the time they lived. I believe that slavery is wrong of course but you must admit that at least the US led the way in abolishing it. 1000 years ago (less actually) people thought human sacrifice was ok too. In simple terms we are still evolving.
As for the second amendment which describes the right of everyone in this country to keep and bear arms, it was written precisely because those writers so distrusted government that they refused to ever have the people disarmed. As bad as our country has gotten in many ways I shudder to think how much worse it would be if over the past 200 years our so-called leaders could have done whatever they pleased without worrying that the people would get so fed up they would rebel. A rebel without a gun is pretty useless. I truly believe that if our government keeps on in the same direction they are going there will be a second american revolution. Probably not in my lifetime but you never know.
What some of the writers are ignoring also is that the students that want to be able to carry on campus are all trained weapons permit holders. Like the ex-marine in the story. And since most states have passed the concealed carry laws several years ago, there has been only one or two cases where a permit holder was involved in an illegal shooting. That’s a pretty convincing statistic.
But what do I care, I’d carry a firearm regardless of whether anyone told me I could. In the early 1980’s as I stood at a bank window late one night only the fact that I was armed kept me alive. I was shot at (luckily they couldn’t shoot straight) and just the fact I was aimed at them made the two would-be robbers run away. I’d hate like hell to ever be involved in a shooting but then I’d hate to be dead too.
November 21st, 2007 at 10:24 pm
It’s no surprise people oppose guns in schools. The media deliberately covers up the fact that most of the school shooters, university shooters, shopping mall shooters etc.. were stopped by people with guns.
And no I’m not talking about the police. The police have done nothing in those situations but shoot innocent people who managed to escape.
November 22nd, 2007 at 1:31 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagious_shooting
Check it out before you advocate guns in school. I wonder how many people you would kill by simply firing a gun once in a crowded area where everyone is carrying a gun. Would you like to clean up that mess?
November 22nd, 2007 at 1:47 am
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
November 22nd, 2007 at 5:08 am
Nuihc said: “Usually Rafael Venegas makes a lot of sense but in this case you’ve let your disdain for the “current” government cloud your thinking. In 1776 and thereabouts the entire world believed in slavery. You can’t judge people except against the canvas of the time they lived.”
The above is simply not a true statement. Africans did not beleive in slavery. No one in their right mind anywhere in the world, ever, would have accepted that a member of their their family, their children, their brothers, be kidnapped and sent to another continent to be sold and possibly murdered if they revelled and ran away to freedom. Slave traders and owners must have known they were criminal and so did everyone else.
Remeber the rape of the American Indians and the taking over of an entire continent as colonies as was done in Africa. Was it allright to steal lands and to to murder the resistors simply because at the time such things were the acceptacle norm of the europeans? Ask the Indians. Ask the Africans.
The europeans point of view was one, the Indians and africans point of view were altogether different, and they were right.
With the argument that a given crime against humanity was acceptable at a given time or society anything can be justified, as long as you don’t look at the crime from the victims point of view.
Is it that we are not interested in the point of view of the indians or the africans because we somehow feel superior?
Going back to the gun issue, it is odd that few looks at the problem of violence as a problem of unnatended mental health of children who eventually become violent or drug addicts or otherwise uneployable criminals. Te question is why not divert the war and other wasted money to have a better health system?
November 24th, 2007 at 3:48 am
The whole debate about whether students should be able to carry guns on campus is right out lame.
It’s bad enough that many University students have trouble keeping their Beer/drugs/temper, imagine how well these people could take responsibility with a gun.
Someone posted that the students would be required to have knowledge of how to use the guns, but, as I am sure that any “real” military person or policeman/woman will agree, it one thing to know how to properly use a gun, but it is another thing to be able to properly use it in a crisis situation.
A good friend of mine, and a man who served in Korea and Vietnam wars, once told me “If you are going to carry a gun, you better be willing to shoot to kill, and willing to for yourself and others to be killed”. Whether you are at risk, or even the person who is causing the risk, the minute you have a gun, you are a threat to other people.
Of course, if you are the idiot who are shooting people at random, you risk killing other people as well as a SUPER HIGH RISK of being killed by the police who have come to stop you.
And if you are an idiot who has a concealed weapon and try to use it on the “idiot” on a rampage, you risk not only killing the “idiot”, but risk accidentally killing someone in the crossfire, as well as becoming the target of the “idiot”. And if you do “accidentally” kill an unrelated person in the cross fire, will you be able to live with yourself, as the “killer” of this person?
There is a farce, that has been going around for a very long time “Guns don’t kill, people with guns do”. But I say this is just an excuse for keeping guns in the system, and keeping people at risk, while padding the pockets of guns makers and politicians.
Think about it… If guns were not so readily available, then you would not even have this problem of students getting a hold of guns and going on a rampage.
So yes, it is the people with guns that kill, but at the same time, guns are the reason that these people can kill others so easily.
So next time you want to go out, with a gun, ponder this, if something provoked to to use that gun, and you end up killing someone with it, can you live with yourself and the guilt? If you can, then you are no different than the “idiot” who shot out the school.
Just my two cents