Trolls, trolling and RIAA rep
p2pnet news view Freedom | P2P:- In an RIAA rep Reader’s Write to Shut down lyric sites!, RIAA rep says:
“To the first poster that couldn’t find anything on our RIAA or members sites: this problem is the fault of all you illegal downloaders, you idiot.
“We say what you get and what you don’t get. Capiche?”
Under it are a number of responses.
There are a lot more in other stories and a few months back, I asked ‘RIAA rep’ to stop posting them because in my opinion, they weren’t adding anything to the issues at hand but were, rather, encouraging posts which only detracted from what was being discussed.
He said the RIAA rep comments were parodies and satires. I didn’t agree, and asked him to stop, explaining why, saying as far as I was concerned, RIAA rep ‘fake’ posts were no better than real troll posts, and were having the same effect.
RIAA rep nonetheless continued and I ended up deleting his comments, which resulted in an endless stream of emailed nags demanding that I allow RIAA rep back.
Finally, RIAA rep posted a longish comment including a couple of sentences which apart from digs at me for the ban, accused me of standing in the way of free speech and included a couple (IMHO) of gratuitously obscene references. It met the same fate as other RIAA rep posts.
Up until this item, I’d always answered RIAA rep’s emails, trying each time to explain why his posts weren’t showing up and politely asking him to back off. This time, I didn’t bother
My email this morning included this from RIAA rep »»»
What, no reply and post gone? Well, you’ve really pissed me off now.
Your petty two-faced censorship has gone too far.
I will now post what I want when I want – I really didn’t appreciate you getting so antsy about my riaa rep character after explaining it to you in such a full and friendly way, but I was willing to stop posting them in the spirit of goodwill. Yet, even just talking about it in a comment post sets you off on a power trip. What the fuck are you on??
I know how to game your forum, I’ve done it before quite successfully and you had no idea it was me. You can look forward to scrambled posts, dodgy comments, riaa rep style stuff and more that I know winds you up. You’ll delete many of them, but I know it’ll piss you off and that’s satisfaction enough.
Oh and I won’t be conveniently identifying myself to you in the spirit cooperation like before or making useful posts such as giving you links to relevant stuff for your site. I’ve done you a nice little starter.
Enjoy.
All that, because you couldn’t be halfway decent towards me, like I was with you.
Don’t bother replying.
His idea of ‘gaming’ is to flood p2pnet with comment posts, all of which I’ve deleted. No doubt you’ll see more of them before I get a chance to dump them.
I don’t have time for this and if it keeps up, I’ll have to introduce comment moderation, which I definitely dont want to do.
Cheers!
Jon Newton – p2pnet
Los Angeles Times – , September , 2008
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October 3rd, 2008 at 2:15 pm
There’s always someone that figures if they can’t get their way, they’ll pout and throw a tantrum for attention. What they would not do in real life, doesn’t make them bat an eye to do on line. It smacks of a lack of proper upbringing that they would expect, nay demand such special treatment, thinking their shit doesn’t stink.
I much agree in this case that RIAArep is doing nothing towards actually helping with active conversation. Much time that I saw was spend with posters responding to his goads but not to the article topic. I’ve seen a few successful trolls. Trolls so good at it that they left the people begging for more despite of a ban. The RIAArep isn’t quite that successful and will have to hone his dialogue up another notch to reach that level. Honestly I don’t think he is quite capable of that.
Funny thing is when these tantrum throwers find that it isn’t working for them, they then start talking for free speech and censorship as the end of the world with vows to fight it one way or another which usually means just a few more headaches for the site owner. Thing of it is, on line life is not about free speech. Each site has an owner that puts up money to keep it on line. As such, they have the ultimate control on what is said and what remains after the dust clears. What you never hear of from these free speech advocates is that they will start and maintain their own site, to say what they want to say. When it comes to putting the money where the mouth is, you find there is a serious credibility gap between what they say and what they strongly believe in. They will have a ton of reasons for the why but it all comes down to one thing. It’s easier to throw tantrums than to deal with their own little domain that allows them whatever they wish to put on line as condoned by their own rules.
October 3rd, 2008 at 2:38 pm
You should have posted some of the examples where he was “halfway decent” to you.
October 3rd, 2008 at 3:18 pm
You prick. more censorship, you fucking coward.
October 3rd, 2008 at 3:20 pm
Crikey, a whole article! I’m that important to you, huh?
Anyway, once again, you distort things to suit you, don’t you Jon? How about quoting some of the really daft, humerous posts from our comedy character, huh? Thought not.
I DID eventually stop posting R—- comedy/satire/parody posts in the spirit of cooperation, but I wasn’t too happy about it. I explained the whole thing to you, but you just wouldn’t accept it and got a real bee in your bonnet over it, but I accepted it, nonetheless. I also started posting useful links for you and making generally constructive comments here as Free Thinker.
I also started putting in my email address with every single post, whether parody or not, as I intended to be above board with you and had said so.
I made a post replying to Ermich about uber troller “Sam I Am”, who regularly skunks up your forum with long rambling rants, not really very far at all from my satirical character, but with far more venom. Somehow *those* posts are good enough to stay here and wind up the other posters. Hence, you are two-faced.
I wanted to talk a little bit about it to Ermich and had a *friendly* dig at you, because I felt you were blowing things out of proportion. So what do you do? You leave my comment languishing “awaiting moderation”. You didn’t even bother to email me about it. What, the truth gettin to ya?
That sounds to me like someone very much on an egotistical powertrip, that’s really just as bad as the Big Media that you report on every day. Give you a little power and look how you abuse it.
Initially I thought you must have missed it with your busy work schedule and so on, so sent you a friendly email about it. What do you do? You send me a pithy, patronising response about “losing patience” with me.
Here it is, along with my orginal message beneath:
From: Jon Newton
Sent: Thu 02.10.08 22:49
To:
Subject: Re: My comment
Hi:
I didn’t miss your comment. I’ve tried to be patient with you, but I’ve now had enough of your r—– and your constant nagging about it.
Your comment post is well out of order and I don’t want to see anything more about it in an email or comment post.
I didn’t like your last two sentences either. So here it is, Michael: leave it out, or do the other thing.
Cheers!
Jon
________________________________________
Hi Jon
I believe you may have missed my comment, as it’s still awaiting moderation:
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/17183#comment-815939
Cheers.
We had a couple more exchanges, especially the one you quoted – thankyou!
I made these crap posts tonight to prove I can get at you, even when you have an ego powertrip. You already do moderation/censorship by deleting our comments you just don’t like, so whether I bug you once in a while in retaliation, you change how the forum works or whatever, I still win. Enjoy.
There’s always two sides to a story, remember that.
October 3rd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Please excuse “You prick. more censorship, you fucking coward.” I didn’t realise the filtered text was there and I wish to take that particular comment back.
Cheers.
October 3rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
I’ve left the above Free Thinker (pity he didn’t just stick to comments under that pseudonym) aka RIAA rep aka MPAA rep, aka whatever, posts in, but these will be the last.
I truly don’t have the time or inclination for any more of this juvenile nonsense.
Cheers!
Jon
October 3rd, 2008 at 3:43 pm
“You prick. more censorship, you fucking coward.”
Very nice Free Thinker.
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:10 pm
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Jon moderated me Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
:p
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:27 pm
“I made a post replying to Ermich about uber troller “Sam I Am”, who regularly skunks up your forum with long rambling rants, not really very far at all from my satirical character, but with far more venom. Somehow *those* posts are good enough to stay here and wind up the other posters. Hence, you are two-faced.
I wanted to talk a little bit about it to Ermich and had a *friendly* dig at you, because I felt you were blowing things out of proportion. So what do you do? You leave my comment languishing “awaiting moderation”. You didn’t even bother to email me about it. What, the truth gettin to ya?”
Okay, uh — please put down the crackpipe or whatever the hell you’re on, because it’s obviously totally destroyed what I assumed was a halfway-decent mind.
1. Yeah, you did help me out with Spam-I-am (not that I actually needed it, because he never actually MADE points or answered questions or anything, so troll-smashing him wasn’t actually that difficult. Also, the points you raised were really good.
But now we see that you and RIAArep are the same guy?
WTF kind of thinking is this, dude? I’ve looked back over the RIAA rep shit and, quite frankly, it wasn’t even good satire.
Now, nobody is ever going to be able to take anything you post here seriously ever again, because, to be blunt, it’s impossible to know whether your “freethinker” persona or “RIAARep” actually match your real beliefs.
Jon has kindly advised me to leave “Sam” alone (which I’ll do, mainly because trouncing him isn’t even entertaining anymore), but, in a strange way, I actually RESPECT the guy, because — garbled and pseudo-intellectual as his posts are, he really genuinely does seem to believe that he’s right. To my way of thinking, mistaken-but-sincere is WAY better than a pissy little fraud who’s whole purpose for being on a forum is just to “game” it.
I take this stuff very seriously (probably too much so, now that I think about it), and I’ll freely admit that at one point I was every bit as dogmatic, unreasonable, and mistaken as “Sam” is now.
But Y’know what?
I read up on stuff, and changed my views. I didn’t create two personas taking opposite sides of an issue just “for the lulz” or whatever you were going for — mainly because I’m not a hypocrite.
For all we know, you could be the blog-equivalent of those fake files Mediadefender puts on p2p networks.
Hell, you might really BE an “RIAA Agent” — provocateur?
Yeah, this pissed me off.
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:32 pm
It’s great for a site to freely allow posting, without having to ‘register’ first with an email account or such. Kind of like being able to pay cash AFTER you pump at a self-seve.
But unfortunately there are always some dick-heads that abuse the system, ruining it for all.
Any dick-head can have an opinion, and I am not interested in hearing that. What I am interested in, is hearing from people that have FIRST-HAND knowledge or experience to share, about the topic at hand.
This site is a news aggregator, not a chat room or comedy site (not to say that some of the news can be entertaining). Most certainly this site has a bias, but Jon is up front about it. This is his site, and he should run it as he sees fit. So if you (RIAArep) don’t agree with Jon’s views, move on to other sites that offer alternate views more to your liking. The Internet is a big place. You’ll be happier.
I was going to add that we’ll all be happier if you move on, but from your posts above, you seem to not care about others. By making threats and calling names, you sound like a pathetic social misfit. The more you hang around and rant, the more you prove this point.
Life is too short to spend much of it hating and fighting. Move on, find others that share your views, and rejoice. Or start your own web site and run it as you see fit. But trying to trash someone else’s web site is like kicking over a sand castle. In the end, no one is satisfied.
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Pathetic. At least go troll a real forum if you have that much time to kill.
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Maybe this troll works for MediaDefender. When he’s not busy making money off porn clips and flooding networks with decoy files and viruses, he posts spam on p2p sites. Not surprisingly, just like the efforts to stop file sharers fails, his efforts to cause you grief doesn’t stop you from posting new stories.
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Sorry to hear this Jon. I’ve always appreciated the forum.
But this….. is priceless from Curt in Boston.
“But unfortunately there are always some dick-heads that abuse the system, ruining it for all.”
LOL
October 3rd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
I don’t think you should have made it a story; it’ll make him feel important. Just delete him (at your convenience).
October 3rd, 2008 at 5:24 pm
@ Andy:
Running p2pnet makes me feel like I’m talking to friends — it really does — and it keeps me going.
Comment posts are an extremely important part of the site so when something looks like affecting them in a bad way, I think it needs to be aired.
Bear in mind this has been going on for months and only when Free Thinker decided it was time to shoot his mouth off did I say anything. And even then, I was careful not to associate that handle with RIAA rep: he did that himself.
Anyhow, thanks for the support. It’s much appreciated.
Cheers!
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:06 pm
“I made these crap posts tonight to prove I can get at you, even when you have an ego powertrip. You already do moderation/censorship by deleting our comments you just don’t like, so whether I bug you once in a while in retaliation, you change how the forum works or whatever, I still win. Enjoy.”
The only think you proved is that you are an insufferable prick. But if you insist on posting in a place were you are clearly non appreaciated just to have your posts deleted, please suit yourself.
I am sure you will annoy Jon a little with it, but the one who is taking the time to write posts that will go to the trash is you. All in all you will be expending more time than him on this and if you admit yourtime is so unimportant that you can obligue I can only pity you.
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:08 pm
This is a drag. I admit I’m always annoyed when I see the FROSTWIRE link and Jon’s support of how that app is obviously intended to be used, and the picky-une way everyone here avoids the larger inconvenient issues of their institutionalized lawbreaking, focusing on whether Media Defender is licensed (LOL who cares?) or if the jury was wrong to be pissed off at Jammie’s arrogant attitude. And all that incidental crap. But still.
Nobody should be bombing Jon’s very good site just because they don’t like the way he runs HIS OWN DAMN SITE….. HELLO????
So I have an idea.
Jon’s an effective writer with a clear loathing of capitalism and a public anarchists glee. It’s what makes him so charming in the first place. But.
Much of what is written here is pure destruction. It’s steeped in anger. It’s always tearing down. It’s complaining and whining and ranting there is no justice but very, very little of anything that resembles reasonable alternative. But Jon has the vision we all agree (or don’t agree) with. Jon is the hub.
So Jon. Forget Free Thinker. Why not write an editorial in your own voice that offers an effective and eminently just path forward that provides a financial incentive to create and distribute art, music, movies, books, and still meets with your own view of how the world and the entertainment industry should work.
Some things published here are just dumb, frankly. The idea than an original concept registered in 1997 (and isn’t even finished, yet, or refined in concept, or practice) MUST be free forever to anyone else who wants to use it for their own personal gain is just plain silly. Nobody who creates IP is going to buy into crap like that. That kind of thinking isn’t useful anymore because times have changed, and any reasonable path forward must acknowledge reality or expect to be simply disregarded.
But Jon, you are in the ideal position to offer your own ideas as a workable system that gives everyone their due. For all the long hours, lost weekends and late nights at the office till midnight with cold pizza and a hot idea, those folks have to be rewarded. They are the creative braintrust in entertainment. You’ve got to pay them bigtime because they have more hard work in by lunch on Monday than the average Joe does in a week of 8 hour days. And how about all the hands-on talent that films a movie? The writers?? The folks that do the lighting? Handle the cameras? Loads the film? Record the sound? Act? Assist the producer? How about THE PRODUCER? The director? All the helpers and assistants? The sets and props and all that stuff that has to be found and purchased and crated and delivered and built and placed just right? The drivers of the trucks who bring the equipment to the site? The set builders and painters and decorators. The guys who unload and set up? Wires and sets and lights forEVER. Then knock down and repack the truck. How about the TRUCK? The make-up and wardrobe folks? The caterer who provides a crap lunch out in the middle of nowhere for the director of photography and his crew sitting and waiting so they can get just the right sunset on film?
The infrastructure to recording sound or touring a live show or making a motion picture is huge and everybody should get paid, no? Maybe not. Maybe there is another path forward. I dunno. But I wanna hear about it.
How about we take advertising off the table because I, for one, am sick to death of ads. Screw advertising, but how should we do this Jon? What’s fair to everybody, including the (currently) illegal downloader who demands they deserve it all for free?
Cut the RIAA and the MPAA OUT ENTIRELY for all the hell I care. Lets discuss this for awhile, instead of invective, or name calling, or (for God’s sake) Thomas Jefferson. Jefferson’s notion of copyright was formed in the 1700’s for crying out loud. He kept slaves and notoriously used one for sex, too, (poor Sally LOL.) SO What’s the POINT? Let’s set all irrelevance aside.
Instead, for once, lets’ figure out what’s fair and actually provides incentive for the most talented and creative amongst us to work the insanely long hours and the months away from home that it takes to make a record album, or a tour or a movie. Tell us what is fair, Jon, and what works for everybody. Lay out the system for us to discuss that is reasonable to everyone, and still gets it all done.
Give us a website that spins positive, and solves a problem for a change.
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Just rummaged back into the comments (Ain’t Google fun, tho?)
Found THIS particularly telling little gem that, in retrospect, should probably have sent up some “red flags”:
Freethinker said:
“I don’t know if you ever saw the black comedy posts by the ironically obnoxious “RIAA rep” and some of his friends, such as Musico on here some time ago? In his heydey he’d twist every article into a pro RIAA stance and generally just really wind his hapless readers up, always pressing the most anti-consumer, pro Big Media, pro DRM (oh, especially the DRM!) arguments you ever saw. Indeed, he often called the trainwreck lawsuit campaign a great success and insisted on its global expansion; not unlike what’s really happening now, unfortunately.
Liberally threatening every poster who dared reply with a lawsuit, was one of his favourite catchphrases – and they bit! Not even Jon was spared. (grin)
Sadly, RIAA rep and his friends were “discouraged” from contributing by Jon here, who wasn’t best pleased with their antics… shame.”
Now, taking this at face-value, one could easily believe that Freethinker merely finds “Riaarep’s” stuff funny — hence the reference to “black comedy” and being “ironically obnoxious”. However, in hindsight, it looks like he was just DARING one of us to figure it out.
The thing that’s somewhat ominous here (other than his repeated threats to “game” the forum, flood you with comment-spam, and generally destroy p2pnet simply because he thinks you’re on a “power trip”), is the reference to “RiaaRep and his friends”.
Does that mean that Freethinker had several OTHER sockpuppets (in which case nobody can be sure of who their communicating with — another reason I choose to use my real name, and wasn’t hesitant to give Jon a pic of my ugly-ass self!).
Or does this mean that SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS are “gaming” p2pnet/have done so in the past?
What would be the reasoning behind such actions?
Being the rather paranoid and cynical person I am, I realize that some aspects of of the pro-p2p viewpoint are controversial and/or easily misunderstood/misrepresented. It’s common for those who support the current state of IP law to portray p2p users/copyright reform advocates/IP skeptics/etc. as simply motivated by “greed” or the desire for “free stuff”. This is one area — among many — where the RIAA/MPAA have done a great job of misinforming the general public, and — in the process — making themselves/their monopolistic bullshit look halfway defensible.
Their tactic seems to boil down to something like “Yeah, we’re obscenely-wealthy, monopolistic corporate scumbags who’ve destroyed entire technologies and utterly gutted the public domain, but at least we’re not as bad as those p2p types!”
It’d be really easy for somebody from one of those organizations to resort to Sock-puppetry to disrupt (and possibly destroy?) a forum/blog like this.
That’s one of the reasons I don’t hide behind a “handle” — if you actually stand for something, then STAND for it, and don’t be afraid to admit that fact.
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:55 pm
@ Sam I Am
“loathing of capitalism and a public anarchists glee”
I don’t loath capitalism and I’m not an anarchist, public or otherwise. I do, though, hate liars, lies, half-truths, dissemblance, sophism, and all the other tools routinely used by most governments and all too many companies, large and small.
“But Jon, you are in the ideal position to offer your own ideas as a workable system that gives everyone their due.”
http://p2pnet.net/story/3981 – a bit old, but still ….
Also – And – http://www.p2pnet.net/story/12682
And – http://p2pnet.net/story/10126
And – http://p2pnet.net/story/838
And – http://www.p2pnet.net/story/136
And there’s a lot more stuff here and elsewhere.
Significantly, though, none of the suggestions come from the corporate movie, music or software industries.
Cheers!
October 3rd, 2008 at 6:56 pm
” Or does this mean that SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS are “gaming” p2pnet/have done so in the past? ”
Ask SamIAm.
He and FreeThinker/Musico etc … have a great deal in common.
Yes indeed.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:23 pm
The replies on this are longer than than the actual article. Nerdrage, imo.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Reply to Sam I am:
“The idea than an original concept registered in 1997 (and isn’t even finished, yet, or refined in concept, or practice) MUST be free forever to anyone else who wants to use it for their own personal gain is just plain silly. Nobody who creates IP is going to buy into crap like that. That kind of thinking isn’t useful anymore because times have changed, and any reasonable path forward must acknowledge reality or expect to be simply disregarded.”
Perhaps you should talk to Sir Timothy Berners-Lee. You can’t speak to Ben Franklin, but he never applied for a patent on any of the dozens of inventions he created. He shipped detailed drawings showing how to make Franklin stoves to anyone that asked for them at his own expense. Similarly for engineering drawings on how to make bifocals.
Not all capitalists are greedy pricks. You may find it odd, but some people decide to stop acquiring wealth when they realize they have enough to live comfortably for the remainder of their existence. Sir Tim gave half of his Million USD Nobel prize award (For inventing http and httpd, thus the WWWeb) to Linus Torvalds. He said it was more than he needed and he thought he should share it with Linus since Linus was also giving his IP away to whomever wanted it.
I prefer to completely disregard greedy pricks. YMMV.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Yes, I had a few other aliases. I can’t name them for you, because the comment will be censored by Jon’s filter. You seem to buy Jon’s version of things without actually looking a little further, so wtf it’s your loss. You suck up to him people. Remember, free speech is about letting people say stuff that you *don’t* like not stuff that you do.
Just think how many other posters here are using different aliases but haven’t got the balls to admit it. Ok?
Just for the record it never has and still isn’t my intention to destroy this site, so you can all stop jerking off to this pet theory.
October 3rd, 2008 at 7:56 pm
People should be unfettered in their freedoms to give or sell as they choose in a free business culture. Give if you want. Sell if you want. SIG, do you get a paycheck each week? Maybe you really Do give it all away. I don’t know.
But not once ever I have suggested that any who work hard routinely so they can give it all away should be obstructed. The realistic costs of running a Manhattan-based multi-employee (with 6 college interns) design business with a global reach are such that we must bill for virtually everything we can, and give where we wish to and we are able. We give stuff away, SRG, but we’re not Communists. We just did a big freebee fashion show last month in India. I’ll tell you about our African Clean Water Initiative we are doing with someone in Jerry Bruckheimer’s organization……
>
……..if you really want to hear about our philanthropic projects. For the record, I’ve never destroyed an entire technology nor have I gutted public domain, but I am finally getting close to obscenely wealthy. Now I can take really, really good care of my Mom.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:07 pm
@Sam I am
No, anti-trust laws are meant to prevent scumbags like you from exploiting others and using a “free business culture” as an excuse. Cut your high-and-mighty bullshit, because nobody buys into it.
1) The realistic cost of running a publishing company nowadays is so low most home owners can afford to have their own independent company.
2) RIAA and MPAA have been running illegal operations for the past 40 years, and yet you don’t care that you are working for a MAFIA.
3) There is nothing illegal about file-sharing. People can go get free samples of ice cream, test-drive cars, but the music and movie industry refuses to allow anyone to even sample the music, while the publishing companies refuse to pay do royalties to the artistists.
On your so-called philanthropic projects, Pablos Escobar was far more philanthropic than you and your RIAA dipshits ever will be. Get your head out of your ass and realize that you are nothing more than criminal organization (the same as the Church of Scientology), which claims to be legal only by bribing police and governments.
If you care for your mom, try telling her the truth; that you have killed and ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, so that you can buy her snobbish crap.
October 3rd, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Okay. You got me there. I “have killed and ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands of people…”
(chuckle)
What do YOU do, Arse? For a living, I mean. Hm?
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:04 pm
I,m not myself one to care where the trolls come from or what anyone here has allegedly done to them, they are by definition of Jon trolls and as such are knowingly making a nusiance of themselves and I dont doubt doing there narcissistic best to keep this thread going for a while.
What I myself do when such trolls abuse my forum is to publish their ips so others can have the choice of choosing to block them from thier own forums, it must be said however that its unlikely these trolls are corporate affiliated as they seem half-witted in their logic (or rather lack of it).
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Sam:
Gotta take issue with you on a few points (didn’t ya just know that?)
1. “Loathing of capitalism/Public anarchist’s glee?”
Just exactly what brand of horse-tranquilizer are you snorting?
How exactly does a hatred for PERPETUAL MONOPOLIES equal a “hatred of capitalism”? The whole purpose of IP is that it expire eventually, and free up what it supposedly “protects” for further use.
What part of the Jefferson quote didn’t you get, exactly?
Oh wait, I forgot — from your point of view, historical inquiry into the laws that “justify” IP law as it exists now is “utterly beside the point.” Fascinating that you keep participating here, no?
2. “Anger and destruction and organized lawbreaking!”:
Nope. Justified contempt for an area where the law has been hijacked, and very literally turned into something exactly OPPOSED to what it was originally intended to do. Look into it, and you might be shocked: I know I was. (But then, like I said, that would involve doing something other than vacuous sermonizing/urging ever more draconian measures.
I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t actually READ an editorial if Jon wrote it (even if it WAS “in his own voice”), because, quite frankly, it’s obvious that your mind is utterly and completely made up on the topic of IP. You find nothing wrong with the current system, and — as you’ve mentioned numerous times before — gain a great advantage from the current system. That’s why all of your protestations about how you’re not “in the RIAA’s camp” ring hollow, as I’ve said several times already.
How about this as a counter-proposal:
1. YOU go an read up on the issues. I’ll even provide a list of sources.
2. Write either a coherent refutation of those sources OR an intelligent defense of the current system.
3. I’m pretty sure Jon and the rest of us here would enjoy reading what you had to say.
Now, I’m pretty sure that’s not going to happen, because — and here’s the important part — up until this point, you’ve shown nothing but belligerence and outright contempt toward anyone who actually dared to challenge your position, and accused your opponents of: immaturity/inexperience/ignorance/”rationalizing their greed”/being motivated by “hatred of capitalism”/”communism”/”anarchism — need I go on?
I know I promised Jon that I’d let this go, but now you’ve gone and spat in the face of our gracious host, and that’s just shameful.
Why are you even HERE?
I’ve seen your posts over on Torrentfreak, Sam, and they’re not that much better — venomous sermonizing coupled with a complete, willful ignorance of anything but your own viewpoint.
So, how ’bout it? How about I provide us all with some links and such, and we can have a REAL debate — not this goddamn idiotic pissing contest you and I have been doing for, what, weeks?
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:00 pm
……..if you really want to hear about our philanthropic projects. For the record, I’ve never destroyed an entire technology nor have I gutted public domain, but I am finally getting close to obscenely wealthy. Now I can take really, really good care of my Mom.
Ah, now we get the stereotypical sob-story from the self-proclaimed guardian of capitalism. You defend the RIAA/MPAA’s runaway perversion of copyright law so you can “take really good care of your Mom”. Did ya ever notice how when people — mostly government bureaucrats/corporate types want to justify something stupid, it’s not REALLY about the big cars or ten houses or perpetual monopoly, it’s suddenly “for the children” or “for my mom” or some other such thing?
Just as an aside, I’m pretty sure that some of the people who die because they can’t afford patented medications (and no generic versions are PERMITTED to compete, and lower the price), have — or are — mothers. So don’t try that shit here, “Sam” — you’d call any of us out if we tried that heatrstrings crap. This is ALL about the fact that under the current IP terms, you figure you’ve got the world by the balls, and — thanks to the RIAA/MPAA — things stand to get a hell of a lot better for you, the more repressive the regulations become.
Now just ‘fess up to that, twirl that big ol’ handlebar mustache, heft them moneybags over your shoulder, and find some other board to infest. That, or take this debate seriously — for once.
(See, THIS is why you piss me off.)
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:19 pm
“Instead, for once, lets’ figure out what’s fair and actually provides incentive for the most talented and creative amongst us to work the insanely long hours and the months away from home that it takes to make a record album, or a tour or a movie. Tell us what is fair, Jon, and what works for everybody. Lay out the system for us to discuss that is reasonable to everyone, and still gets it all done.
Give us a website that spins positive, and solves a problem for a change”
Okay, where to start with this?
1. Your usual sermonizing and more RIAA doublespeak. The “most talented and creative” among us usually get fucked over by vermin like the RIAA/MPAA — but hey, like you always said, “sold is sold”. Cuuute.
The RIAA/MPAA controlled all authorized distribution channels, terrestrial radio, and damn near all retail space. Things like “fair use” and the first-sale doctrine exist primarily to PREVENT these vermin from using their ever-longer-term monopolies to extort ridiculous demands.
“First sale” is intended to “permit” people to resell stuff that they bought.
“Fair use” is there specifically because people have attempted to squeeze out every available cent, even from small quotations used in book reviews or educational purposes.
Like I said, “Sam”, nobody’s going to actually take you seriously if all you do is sermonize and make all kinds of stupid accusations.
What’s “fair” (for starters) is a far shorter copyright term (and a recognition that it’s not a “fundamental right” — but a privilege granted for a specific reason.)
What’s “fair” would be to require registration so people could maybeactually figure out WHO owns the copyright on a given piece of “content”.
What’s “fair” would be
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:25 pm
What’s “fair” would be some kind of blanket-licensing fee setup (like the one the EFF has been advocating for years) — similar to what allows terrestrial radio to exist. There’d still be those who wouldn’t pay (as you’ve admitted already), but that’ll happen anyway no matter how repressive your pals at the RIAA make the law.
I brought up “civil disobedience” specifically because it’s what’s happening: people are, quite frankly, tired of getting shafted just so a few multinational corporate megaliths can “buy” themselves another twenty years of monopoly at whim.
I bet you don’t like public libraries much, do you, Sam?
I mean, hey — hundreds of people are given access to books they didn’t have to PAY FOR (gasp!) — think of all the hardworking authors and publishers!!!! Think of your mom! Think of the Chiiiildren!
(Okay, the library thing was just funnin’ with you.)
But really, I do hope you take me up on that offer. I’m going to be making a submission to Jon in awhile — after he gets some projects of his own done — that will contain what I hope will be at least a decent set of links to stuff which will maybe get you — and a lot of other people — started thinking more deeply about these issues.
But sermonizing just won’t cut it.
Okay, Jon — I’m done now.
No flamage, no “lulz” at Sam’s expense.
Just Li’l ol’ me.
Flame on, Yall!
October 4th, 2008 at 12:42 am
Jon, trolls are protected by the first amendment too, even if I don’t like them.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080207-appeals-court-first-amendment-protects-forum-trolls-too.html
“Anonymous trolls on the Internet are allowed to remain anonymous, a judge in a California appeals court ruled yesterday. Not only that, but they’re allowed to exercise their First Amendment rights and speak their minds, no matter how scathing their comments may be.”
October 4th, 2008 at 1:02 am
They may be “allowed” but the point of this blog is not that it’s publicly owned. It’s not, it’s privately owned. That Jon chooses to allow the public to participate does not make it without rules nor control. When the public picks up the tab for the site, I am sure Jon might consider other rules. Like Jon, I run my own house. Till the money comes from taxpayers and relieves me of the need to pay the bills to keep the site on line, it’s my rules or the highway, get used to it.
I made the very first comment on this article and sure enough it wasn’t long and here it came out…the free speech bit. Knew it when I wrote it as it is always one of those straws that are grasped at without thought of anyone else to justify the selfishness of allowing one individual to puff up his chest and be an a$$hole. Never fails, nor did it this time.
The last little bit in the California appeals I haven’t figured out is what part of Canada belongs to the US? Those laws and rules don’t apply to Canadian citizens nor to the country of Canada. After all, it’s one of the famous lines used when one of the Attorney Generals wants to sue the music industry…it’s the first thing you hear. We’re not in your jurisdiction. It’s the classic first reply that everyone one them uses with the exception of Warner.
October 4th, 2008 at 1:39 am
Trolling may be allowed, and the right to their being anonymous upheld as noted before, but
readers don’t have to put up with it. As the previous poster said, this is a private site, so the
best defense is to ignore their comments.
At a site I belong to, Broadband Reports, forum posts are moderated, and trolling is not tolerated.
Any user can flag a post for moderation by clicking “Hey Mods”, and a moderator will check it out.
There is quite a bit of trolling at times there, and moderators will lock posts or entire topics, or even
delete them in such cases. Some moderation also occurs on front page news items, where similar
trolling on any story about p2p, or network neutrality, or ISP throttling occurs. But a lot of troll posts
remain intact.
Users who have been with the site for some time can also selectively ignore other users’ posts; this is
similar in function to the kill or PLONK file that many Usenet subscribers use.
October 4th, 2008 at 2:40 am
“The last little bit in the California appeals I haven’t figured out is what part of Canada belongs to the U S?”
Given the recent U S elections and upcoming Canadian election, this should be easy to figure out: Alberta, it belongs to Jesusland.
October 4th, 2008 at 3:00 am
As far as I remember freedom means to do as you wish in the hopes of improving yourself and the life of others around you and without infringing on others in negative way.
So what’s your excuse “Free Thinker” “RIAArep” ?
Let me answer this for you and for everyone ===> There Is None!
Your stats are crashing … run away little boy, you’re messing with elements you can’t stop
The internet was given away for public use due to being insecure for USA DOD needs as a free distributed medium that no-one could control. As soon as this was done any and all exposed information became free for everyone. With server capable OS it made the internet and sharing more available to everyone.
So whoever thinks they can lock it down is dreaming or highly delusional
You have a patent and it’s posted? Anyone can build it for free or at their own expense.
You sell a product and one of us reverse engineers it? Too bad
You have a song that you wrote and it’s disseminated? You better do more concerts to make your cash.
You have software which you have coded and you post it? Consider it gone and free for everyone
If you use respect you will be compensated as we can afford it. Anything outside of this and you’re SOL
P2P? It started and it’s not going to end, final answer
You have a secret? OK and great
You tell it to someone? You’re taking a chance
One of the two tells someone else? Guess what? IT’S NOT A SECRET ANYMORE and free for everyone
You come hassle me and I will defend myself. And believe me I can defend myself very well.
As some of my friends would say => “you hurt me, my family or my friends needlessly and we will find you and rip your heart out, no matter which rock or hole you’re hiding in, there is no fortress good enough to protect you”
This is no joke => We have taken on bad cops, mafia, yakuza, triads, corporations, columbian drug dealers, rogue bikers, russian mob and many others. We have won every time!
Consider this your basic lesson in respect, internet use and everything
Any questions? Go read this post again … and again till you get it
Enjoy
October 4th, 2008 at 6:11 am
Anonymity can turn even the most well behaved level headed individual into a complete jackass. A thick skin and the ability to ignore all the (many) idiots out there is a prerequisite when using the internet. This chump clearly has no life and I’ll bet is the type of person that can’t be happy unless everyone around him is miserable. It’s actually pretty easy to spot and ignore them, but sadly some folks can’t help themselves when baited into an argument they will obviously never ever win. Human nature and all that jazz.
I used to post as Reasonable Person and possibly a few other random names over the years that I can no longer remember. I’ve recently settled on using Irate Pirate here and at a few other p2p related news sites, mainly so it’s easier to keep track of my comments. I don’t always agree 100% of the time with his views, but even so I would never bad mouth Jon or his site. Never have as far as I can remember. There aren’t enough folks out there like him doing what needs to be done as it is. Anyways, just thought I’d mention that if you ever see a post by one of my names that does so, then it isn’t me and should be ignored/deleted. Moderation is a pain, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do in order to protect the greater good. Keep up the great work Jon!
October 4th, 2008 at 6:24 am
I think people are not understanding the Judge’s ruling in the case posted by Name (optional).
The judge ruled that a person could not subpoena a web forum to get info that could lead to finding out the identity of an anonymous poster just because you don’t like what they post. If the post contains libelous statements or infringes copyright, then the complainant, on showing a reasonable liklyhood of success in their claims, could then subpoena the web forum. Cases of libel are not easy to win in the US. Easier in Canada and the UK.
Anonymous free speech is a constitutionally protected right in the US. Corporations may not issue subpoenas to obtain the identities of anonymous posters just because they say that the corporation’s products suck. You hear that Microsoft? Vista is beyond suck.
Even if US Law applied on Vancouver Island, and it doesn’t, the Judge’s ruling does not prevent Jon from deleting whatever he likes (or dislikes).
This ruling prevents me from subpoenaing Jon’s web server logs in order to find out who Free Thinker or Sam I Am are. No worries. I didn’t want to know anyway.
This makes one wonder why the RIAA gets these subpoenas issued so easily. One would think that they should have to show that they have enough evidence to be successful in their action once they get the name of the defendant. Instead, Judges have been issuing these subpoenas like jellybeans. I’m sure that if my copyrights were infringed, I’d have a lot more trouble getting a subpoena than the Recording Industry Assholes of America are having.
IANAL. This is not legal advice. Consult a properly licensed attorney. Blah Blah…
October 4th, 2008 at 10:06 am
^^ “Anonymous free speech is a constitutionally protected right in the US. Corporations may not issue subpoenas to obtain the identities of anonymous posters just because they say that the corporation’s products suck.”
I wish it was the same in Canada.
Cheers!
October 4th, 2008 at 11:18 am
The point is that comments should be germane to the article and ensuing conversation. Ad hominem attacks, threats and personal attacks do not fit the category of serious adult communication. Rather than deleting the turkeys, maybe a troll folder would be appropriate. A placeholder can note the comment was moved to the troll folder and one can go read it if they absolutely feel the need to do so. The reply has not been censored in the classic fashion. It is still available; just politely ignored as a juvenile response in an otherwise adult conversation.
October 4th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Sa I Am Said: “People should be unfettered in their freedoms to give or sell as they choose in a free business culture. Give if you want. Sell if you want. SIG, do you get a paycheck each week? Maybe you really Do give it all away. I don’t know.”
Shall i recite Something from Ben Franklin which MAFIAA and closed minded ppl Seem to forget:
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. – Ben Franklin
If you ,yes YOU gave up your liberty ,You deserve Neither. I’m sick off of “OH P2P is destroying Everything and the sky is falling and other nonsence” ,it is stupid.By the way… IF a DRM law got passed and everything got DRM’d then YOU’D suffer as well cause NOT one person can be above the law(includes MAFIAA and politicians,etc..).Once a person makes a stupid law it’ll come back to bite them in the @$$.
- John MCCain Owns SKYNET
October 4th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
Wha?
I’m not “giving up my liberty”, John, and I defend yours right up to the point where you feel at liberty to take our stuff without paying for it. I’m not giving up our IP, either— we created it— so not until the law says we must. Then it’s gone. Alas.
October 4th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
Um no,I pay For my stuff I buy. I’ll admit the second I sampled SNK vs Capcom Pro for the PS1 ,I bought it two weeks later(Yes the actual game).You are kinda like bunching everyone including the good people up and calling them all liars and thieves. I AM not a liar OR a thief,I pay for the stuff I sample thus is why I imported my Saturn, Dreamcast, Famicom,etc.. I bought them all with MY paycheck. You must have got some ideaology from metallica cause you are grouping everyone in the same batch.
I get what I pay from and I have.
-John MCCain Owns SKYNET
October 4th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Actually, I do pay for “stuff” every time I buy recordable media. I’ve been paying for the right to download and copy for free since the 1970’s. The CRIA wants to make downloading “illegal”, I want a refund for every blank tape and CD I purchased in the last 3 decades!
Think we’re both out of luck.
As for this “Freethinker” nutjob- get out of your mother’s basement and find a girlfriend, for goodness sake!
October 4th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
now he’s posting in other threads, calling himself Freeman, being all nice and
cooperative, for now.
October 4th, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Sam:
No, “We” didn’t create it — the Statute of Anne did (but then again, I forgot — history is meaningless, and we should all “stay in the reality of the moment”. Not to mention that you counseled me in an earlier post that I should stop advocating for what “should” be. Funny how hypocrisy works: your RIAA buddies have been lobbying for what they believe “should” be, in the field of IP law — ever longer copyright terms coupled with ever more repressive and intrusive legislation.
I can, however, understand why you’d say “alas” in this regard. After all, you’ve stated that the expiration of your copyright term will “take” from your daughter. I’m not going to rehash this topic, however, since you’ll just dodge the questions put to you again. I’ll let the “skynet” guy waste time on you, because quite frankly, I’m bored with you, now.
You still didn’t say anything in regard to my offer, btw. That’s kinda telling in itself.
October 4th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Since the rhetoric is heating and I’m now compared to a deceased Columbian drug lord, a bit more transparency about our design business is in order so you can better understand how secure IP can support a variety of good causes. On Monday I’m a invited guest at the Future of Music Seminar, an all day affair here in New York that will try to figure out how musicians can survive and afford health insurance and that sort of thing in this new enlightened age of piracy. You can read about this on Beckerman’s blog in a post dated Wednesday, October first.
http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com
Also on Monday, we are sending our star intern Meegan out to LA to put final touches on that water initiative she developed with Bruckheimer’s people. Meegan worked on one of his films last year and it was her genius to ask him to credit the world’s participating water companies in the crawl of a future motion picture, all in exchange for the bottlers giving and shipping cargo planes full of pallets of bottled water to Africa. My personal contribution is a check that will allow Meegan to hire staff and book flights, hotels, cars and local cellphones; basically organizational ground support to aid in the logistics of clearing customs and getting it all trucked out into the plains. Meegan is still in college and a real smarty. She came up with this and did it largely on her own time, and she is not yet 21.
Then later next week I’ve gotta bounce to Munich for a week of meetings with a “three-letter name” motorcycle company there. We’ve conceived, written and staged their bike-launch trade shows in a dozen cities around the world since 2002, all under our license. All through the 1990’s we used to do the big ToyFair in Nurnberg and an exec from this firm saw our stuff and invited us down to talk. This’ll be our sixth year. The beer is good and they gave me a nice bike, too. I like working for them.
Then there’s Henry. Since Henry got copyright religion a few weeks back he’s been hectoring me here about history and my personal greed, and demanding I do my homework on law that is the basis of agreements I’ve actually been drafting and enforcing since about the time he was born. Henry won’t actually tell us about his career or where he invests the majority of his time each week and how this makes him the P2Pnet copyright expert.
Truth is, for weeks now Henry has been parroting the dogma of one Karl Fogel, a narrow-minded messiah dedicated to prying copyright from the hands of creators for the betterment of humankind. Nevermind that Fogel takes fees lecturing at universities and also cash advances from publishers for his “Creative Commons” licensed books. In Fogel’s world he’s entitled to the revenue stream his work produces but we’re not. Henry’s been channeling Fogel all along, in fact the only original thoughts Henry has offered here so far are his liquidy shit comment and referencing Mitch Bainwol’s semen. Everything else–virtually everything beginning all the way back at the Statute of Anne–is a direct lift from Fogel, all without one single word of proper attribution. Naturally. That’s how Henry Ermich “thinks”.
So Meegan is off to LA and I’m at the music seminar next week and Henry sits and sputters, fuming in his small town/backwoods fury while channeling filesharings’ version of L. Ron Hubbard in his own private little IP-Church-of-Scientology.
We all live the lives we earn for ourselves, Henry, and you are quite right to stay in Pennsylvania. We both started there, true, but I got out and I thank my lucky stars I’m not you. You couldn’t carry Meegan’s briefcase, and your rebel-without-a-clue school of “thinking” would land you back on the bus in a heartbeat.
October 5th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Oh dear the “I,m more holy than you speech”, how exciting.
Many folks are waking up to the corporate greed and whilst the fact is you write your cheques out to some worthy causes the revenue supporting those checks comes likely from over extended ip property terms that steal off the consumer and where put in place by “donation” taking politicians.
Please dont tell us what a nice man you are when we keep your job safe for you its shameful.
October 5th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
your rich huh? jon isnt. have you made a contribution? dont bother to answer (has he jon?)
October 5th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
Any time a conflict with a commenter gets to the point where you have to (a) post his private email to you, (b) call him out in public, (c) threaten to punish everyone for his actions by changing the system, then you can very certain that you have handled it badly and as a result have failed quite spectacularly. This troll is just a nuisance – this website’s response, however, is embarrassing, and this whole web page right here that I’m typing under, should never have seen the light of day.
If you can’t deal with trolls the way everybody does, then just change your system: don’t threaten it. Don’t pout publically. Maybe make a post after the change explaining why, but don’t open your dirty laundry for us in advance and then look at us as if you expect us to do anything about it. This is web. You should be used to this by now. I feel no sympathy for you whatsoever.
P.S. Love your site.
October 5th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
Sam:
None of us are particularly interested in the specific details of your business, or your “star intern”, or any of that. We already understand that you believe that your business model depends NOT merely on SOME form of “IP” law, but on the existing system, with it’s Life-plus-70, “works for hire”, etc.
“Compared to a deceased colombian drug-lord?” Nah, more like Jack Valenti, Hillary Rosen, and other such folks. Oddly enough, the RIAA — who you claim not to support, as I recall — routinely trot out various cases where they’ve defended Freedom of speech, stood against government-imposed censorship, etc. Ultimately, however, none of that matters in the lease, because — and here’s the important part coming up — they engage in such noble “Freedom-loving” advocacy while simultaneously lobbying the State to grant them ever longer copyright terms.
The specifics of your business don’t matter, “Sam”: what’s important is:
1. You’ve continually sidestepped even the simplest questions asked of you — prefering instead to sermonize endlessly about “the sacred right of property”, accuse your opponents of communism/anarchism/immorality etc — up to and including Jon Newton himself.
2. You defend a system of “IP” law which you ADMIT is only available to you in it’s present form due to the lobbying of scum like the RIAA/MPAA. You’ve already ADMITTED that — barring their actions — the vast majority of the “content” shared on p2p networks wouldn’t BE “property” anymore. That is, after all, what’s supposed to happen.
3. Now suddely you want Jon to write an editorial “in his own voice” — disregarding the fact that he’s provided you with copious links to posts where he’s already stated his position quite clearly AND the fact that you’ve repeatedly claimed that the history of copyright is “beside the point”. Not only that, but you’ve also stated several times that any opposition toward — or even questioning of — the current IP setup is merely “rationalization for selfish greed” and mere windowdressing for “rampant lawlessness”.
4. I’ve offered nicely to provide you with links to sources which better explain the concerns and theory behind many different critiques of the current state of “intellectual property”, on condition that you actually READ them, and then respond intelligently to them. You’ve ignored my proposal, choosing instead to take the “I’m just a poor widdle Average-Joe Businessman who can finally take good care of Mama” line of attack.
So, don’t be suprised if nobody takes you seriously here, or treats you with the “respect” you supposedly think you deserve: you’ve done nothing but parrot off every big of RIAA/MPAA propaganda, AND sneer at us all in the process.
This thread was originally about “trolls and trolling”, so I for one think it’s extremely appropriate that you’ve chosen — yet again — to sally forth from under your bridge once more, to hurl insults and nonsequiturs at us all, yet again.
October 5th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Oh and, Sam,
“Backwoods fury”, “L. Ron Hubbard”? You can do better than that.
Yet again with the pissy little jibes. Too bad you’re not interested in actually, I dunno, reading and learning stuff.
Moron.
October 7th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
But… Can’t we all just get along? (wrings hands and a teardrop forms)
” I feel it in my fingers
I feel it in my toes
love is all around me
and so the feeling grows” – Troggs
“People let me tell you ’bout my best friend,
He’s a warm hearted person who’ll love me till the end. ”
Don’t you just feel the love growing inside you? Don’t you want to hug Sam I am and RIIA rep and say “now now don’t be angwy wangwy, we wuv you so vewy much!” I just can’t STAND IT, I’m going to cry!!! Sorry John, I have to go now to eat some Tofu and watch Oprah Winfry.
October 7th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
This is very much like World of Warcraft guild drama.