New Bell Canada outrage: double dipping
Now, “Have you checked your Bell Canada bandwidth lately?” – she asks.
Because if you’re the type to use, or come close to using, your allocated (you thought) bandwidth, there’s a good chance you’ve over-paid, she says, going on »»»
Thumbing through the regular telecom forums, I came across a few posts that caught my eye.
Referenced below, they centre on how Bell Canada is apparently playing with peoples’ bandwidth, failing to give them what they’re paying for.
But before I get into that, let’s first establish the known criteria of Bell’s bandwidth policies.
Knowns:
Bell improperly throttles user accounts, claiming it has no choice.
1. Users get 60 gigs of bandwidth usage per month (note, the actual allocated bandwidth is different for different packages. In this article I focus on the standard 60-gig package).
Bell Legal Reference (terms and conditions): http://www.bell.ca/shopping/popups/personal/internet/legal.jsp?serviceId=Performance
2. Ontario users pay $1.50 per additional gig (rounded up). Quebec users pay $2.50 per additional gig (rounded up)
Bell Legal Reference (terms and conditions): Same link as above (#1) for Ontario. For Quebec charges, change location on the Bell site to QC to set a cookie and refer to the same link,
http://www.bell.ca/shopping/popups/personal/internet/legal.jsp?serviceId=Performance
Or refer to,
http://service.sympatico.ca/index.cfm?method=bandwidthMonitor.plans
3. The company recently told the CRTC [Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission] the sophisticated Bell DPI (deep packet inspection) equipment (which is capable of so much) was installed to track the bandwidth usage of alleged bandwidth hogs, 5% of customers who, Bell claims, use P2P file sharing applications to the detriment of everyone else.
Link, file, and phrase: http://www.crtc.gc.ca/public/partvii/2008/8646/c12_200815400/1006810.zip
File name: The Companies_CRTC_8_ABR.doc
As explained in detail in its Answer to CAIP’s (Canadian Association of Internet Providers) Application dated July 11, 2008 (see in particular section 8.3), even though Bell’s DPI equipment was ostensibly installed to introduce usage data collection functionality for Bell Wireline’s usage billing, it was later discovered it was also being used for traffic shaping to supposedly reduce peak period congestion.
4. The Bell bandwidth tracker has a 60-hour (2.5-day) delay before a user can view his or her actual usage.
The bandwidth meter
Now we’re familiar with Bell’s usage and tracking policies, let’s get into what’s happening with the complaints in Bell Canada’s internet forum, and on the Bell forum on DSLreports.com
People say they’re not getting their 60 gigs per month as promised, as advertised, and as sold to them.
Big surprise.
They’re complaining that at the beginning of each month, instead of starting at zero, the bell bandwidth meter kicks off with some arbitrary number left over from the previous billing cycle.
People say because of a huge three-day delay in updating the bandwidth tracker, they don’t really have any idea of exactly how much bandwidth they’ve used, or not used, or even what’s left for their month.
The following scenarios arise:
Problem 1, Bandwidth Trackers Gone Crazy.
Paying Bell customer doesn’t get the 60 gigs per month (or doesn’t get the 60 gigs per billing cycle) as advertised by Bell.
If a user has used 30 gigs of bandwidth with three days lefton the bandwidth tracker, users assume they have 30 gigs remaining for use. So they use it.
But the 30-gigs they think they have left may actually be less since Bell’s bandwidth tracker is a solid three days behind.
Since it’s three days in arrears, the bandwidth tracker may only calculate 10 or 20 gigs as being used in the balance of the month and may then carry over whatever was downloaded on the second last day of the billing cycle to the next month.
So the user never gets the full 60 gigs and the new billing cycle starts off with, say, 20 gigs as having already being used on day one of the new billing cycle.
And that’s down to the huge delay in calculating and displaying used bandwidth.
Scenario 2
Based on Scenario 1, paying Bell customers don’t get 60 gigs per month (or don’t get 60 gigs per billing cycle) as advertised by Bell on the second billing cycle because the bandwidth used in the first one wasn’t counted or reflected on the paying Bell customer’s first month.
It shows up on the next billing cycle so in effect, the user once again doesn’t get benefit of the full 60 gigs on the second billing cycle since part of cycle 1 has been transferred to cycle 2.
Scenario 3
If customers aren’t aware (and many aren’t), they assume they can use 60 gigs on the new billing cycle.
But if they do, they’ll be dinged for a total of 80 gigs (using the same 20 gig example above).
This will then cost them bandwidth over-charges at a rate of either $1.50 or $2.50 per gig.
Scenario 4
Because of the very first billing cycle (Month #1), people who use 60 gigs per month never actually get 60-gigs per month. Instead, they’re wrongly and improperly charged for using more than 60 gigs because of the carry over caused by the 60 hour delay in the bandwidth tracker.
Scenario 5 (If you’re the type to exceed your 60-gig bandwidth limit once in a while)
Bell has a $30 maximum charge if you exceed bandwidth limits. If you go over it one month, you’re supposed to be charged a maximum of $30.
But let’s say you used 100-gigs of bandwidth in December. You figure you’ll pay the max of $30. Right?
Bzzzzzt. Wrong!
What can happen is: whatever Bell’s defective bandwidth tracker counts will be added to your next bill, based on its three-day delay and the balance it didn’t include will then be added to your next billing cycle.
So in effect you could end up paying double the cost ($60) for what should be a maximum of $30, since you’ll pay for two months of overages instead on one (Month 1 may not carry the full amount of bandwidth used, and then put it on month 2, as people are reporting).
In short, Bell isn’t giving you what you pay for, what you bought, what’s advertised, what’s calculated, and what you’re billed.
Instead, it’s double dipping and getting great financial rewards from the thousands of users who aren’t aware (Bell claims more than two million high-speed internet users).
Problem 2 – Bell’s Email notification Tracker of Bandwidth usage
Bell also has an email notification system to tell you when you’ve reached certain level of bandwidth usage.
But it, too has apperently gone wild.
Did you expect anything different?!
It reports you’ve used 90% of your allocated bandwidth usage when you haven’t, and also it doesn’t report your bandwidth usage when you’ve reached a certain threshold. Refer to links below.
Bell’s reply to one user in their very own Bell forum who went over the bandwidth without the Email notification and waiting for a reply for three-weeks from Bell for the answer was:
(refer to: http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=628)
“The results of the investigation have come through. Currently there is no billing defect with our bandwidth tracker.”
The Bell Forum member replied:
What does billing defect mean in Bell speak? Billing defect to me means a link between the bandwdith counter and overage charges. Our dispute has more to do with the actual counter itself and its accuracy, or possible lack of accuracy. Also as one member mentioned, having bandwidth randomly rolling from one period to the next causing unforeseen overages.
And then the customer stated again (note, Bell broke his topic up into two different topics):
(Refer to: http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=653)
I’m not sure if it needed an extra topic or not. I was just championing the cause for some people that posted questioning the reliability and accuracy of the bandwidth tool. That included the issue in the original post by mark related to the way the bandwidth was rolling over into the next month causing him to have 40Gb in one month and 70 in the other for example.
However I’m not exactly clear with that Alexander said about the results of the investigation. I’m not sure which investigation it is, nor does the response “Currently there is no billing defect with our bandwidth tracker.” tell us much about the outcome of said investigation. Hopefully some more clarification can be provided.
Indeed. This raises many concerns of what people have over paid over the past long while (since these complaints have been around for a long time. Over a year).
Bell replied:
What I meant by “no billing defect” is that there is no defects with the tracker or any billing charges associated with the trackers results.
Oh. So it’s this person’s imagination. And many others are in the same boat!?
Does Bell Internet come with free crack cocaine? Must be a user imagination problem!
If a user uses 30 gigs two days or one day before the month’s end date, why does it show up on the new month, in the process robbing the person of their full 60 gigs?
What happens if someone isn’t aware the bandwidth will be added to the new month, even though it was used on the previous month?
They get billed for it. End of story.
But according to Bell, that’s not a problem.
I’d have no problem either if I could charge Bell up to $2.50 per gig of fictional use on a month.
The customer once again states the facts:
(same reference: http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=653)
What that leaves us with however is that there is still an issue with the way the bandwidth is tracked and updated at month end causing rollover into the new billing period when the amount should have been applied to the original billing period. There is also lingering still the issue with the bandwidth notifications that I have raised and am looking forward to hearing the outcome of this one.
I think Bell needs to really straighten themselves out on this matter. It seems as of late there are a lot of questions being raised about the validity of the bandwidth tracking tool. This is especially imperative when you charge excessive fees for overage and have customers on capped plans. How can customers reliably budget their bandwidth usage when the tracking tool isn’t accurate?
The customer reiterates:
Well I think there are still issues at hand here. Part of the problem is the 60 hour response time with the tracker. How can customers monitor their bandwidth properly when it is so far behind? Especially when they’re excessively billed if they go over their limit? Again sure there may not actually be a problem with the way it captures and tracks the bandwidth from a technical side as you say they found no issue with. The problem lies with the response time and the issue with the monthly roll-overs. Plus the inaccuracy of the bandwidth notifications.
Then another user jumps in and confirms it.
Bell has not replied again on this topic which ended on Jan 20th with no further reply.
Must be another “thorough investigation” happening (heh).
Then another Bell Employee (Moderator) jumps in on another topic created by the same person:
(Ref: http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=543)
It’s been escalated to the proper department and it’s in the works of being fixed however I don’t have a definite date when it will be done.
I’m looking for updates and will let you know as soon as I get more information.
This very keen-eyed user picks up on the Bell employee comments and says:
I wasn’t quite asking about a fix since I didn’t even know for sure if it was broken. But now that you’ve mentioned that there is in fact an issue, that is good to know that a problem has been identified and that it will be resolved.
So there we have it — a broken bandwidth tracker and Bell over-billing.
Then to make matters worse :
( Ref: http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=543 on page 2)
More issues with the bandwidth notifications. I received an email yesterday to notify me that I have hit 90% of my usage for the month, which is fine. The main issue however is that I did not receive notification at all when I hit 50% or 75% as I am supposed to.
When I logged in to check my actual usage to see if it was at 90Gb for the month (I was surpised at that because I hadn’t downloaded much), I noticed that my usage is actually only 31Gb for the month.
Then:
Issues with this bandwidth tracker keep on pilling up which is a really big issue considering the amount of money Bell can potentially (and does) make on bandwidth overage charges. These issues need to be solved fast.
And in case you missed it, Bell trackers claim there are 48 days in a month (http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21721338-Upload-usage).
All of this can be reviewed at these links:
http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=653
http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=543
http://forums.bell.ca/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=628
Additional problems reported by Bell customers in regards to the bandwidth tracker which charges enormous amounts to you (even if you never did exceed your bandwidth):
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21721338-Upload-usage
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21758418-Internet-I-used-13-Gigs-in-a-day-OO
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21622463-Internet-Bandwidth-Usage-Discrepancies
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21141262-Internet-Usage-Monitor
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21117983-question-about-bandwitdh
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20891251-Have-You-Purchased-Your-Usage-Insurance-Plan-Yet
Who’ll get their money back?
PIAC, CIPPIC, the Quebec Consumers Union, and others have been asking for a look at Bell’s bandwidth usage since the start of the neutrally debate.
Since there’s such an apparent wide-spread problem leading to Bell over-charging customers on bandwidth for absolutely no reason except due to their faulty and defective problematic trackers, one must ask:
Who’ll stick up for all these people who’ve been over-charged?
Who’ll get their money back?
Who’ll investigate this?
Maybe someone can send this off to PIAC, CIPPIC, and the Quebec Consumers Union?
The Quebec Bell customers are worse off at $2.50 per gig!
Ouch!
Will there be an impartial investigation into this Bell problem of over-charging people at a rate of 1.50$/gig for Ontario and 2.50$/gig for Quebec that has been going on for a very long time now?
Bell stated the initial purpose of the DPI equipment was for tracking bandwidth ONLY. But there’s a rumour going around it’ll be used to track the bandwidth of wholesalers.
This be front and centre in an investigation.
How will Bell’s sophisticated DPI gear be used on wholesale customers, if or when this happens?
Meanwhile, people who’ve been over-charged in the past, or will be in the future, should be making their voices heard in Bell’s own forum and demanding a credit.
Or contact one of the consumer unions.
Ottawa Gal – p2pnet
[Ottawa Gal is a long-time p2pnet reader and comment poster who’d rather would be anonymous. She says she works in the University, likes her cat, reality TV, and Doctor McDreamy. Her favourite web sites are the Michael Geist blog and p2pnet.net. 'Privacy on the net is also important to me,' she says. 'I need a tinfoil hat 
' She’s also the mother of, 'two darling little girls who tore down my ceiling fan thinking it would be fun to hang from it.' So she advises parents to, 'never have an armchair around from which little ones can reach fans'. (No one was hurt 
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January , 2009
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January 31st, 2009 at 4:53 pm
As I mentioned before, I held Bell to their original contract.
One advantage of not taking their shit in the first place is I don’t have to worry about the above scenarios.
People seem to realize too late (or even not at all) what their rights are and how to use them.
People need to stop blindly subscribing to all the corporate product, corporate service, and corporate BS, and start reading what they sign, and paying attention afterward.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:14 pm
Though I agree with you, I must pose a question.
Do you think most people realize?
(ie. Do most people know all the ins and outs, the calculations, the bugs, the problems, the deception, “why” they are paying more, why they don’t have what they pay for, etc.. ?)
If you answer “no”, then a consumer group should be contacted, IMO.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:41 pm
this is the reason I left Bell and switched to shaw cable.
ever since i’ve been happier than tom cruise on opra
January 31st, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Ya ever wonder why the negativity with bell continues?
Ya ever wonder why there isn’t a good storey EVER about bell?
Ya ever wonder why they’d rather give out some money to some arts show and screw the rest of us?
Ya ever wonder when it will change?
Answers
Always,Never,Greed,Never.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:15 pm
2.5 per GIG eh?
even 1.5 means that 100GB cap they tout = 150$ wait till people get that bill in the mail.
and 250$ in quebec , seems like bell WANTS to get SUED out of existence and lose all the customers it can.
BAD BUSINESS and all that hacking security problems too , means they can’t or won’t keep business partners much longer either.
I give BELL 2 years before it files for bankruptcy. All because a traffic shaping…….
January 31st, 2009 at 11:30 pm
@RW…
My point was people have gotten too used to letting someone else THINK FOR THEM, and that they really need to start thinking for themselves. They need to know at least the basics, and start questioning things before they become a problem or a really bad “surprise”.
When people fail to educate and arm themselves, it enables companies like Bell to continue to take advantage of such consumers.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:47 pm
A couple of months ago “some of ” Chronoss’ calculations would be true.
Apparently now (as the article above stats) there is a 30$ limit that they brought back.
This is WHY people who have ever paid for over-charges need to have it all reviewed.
And yes, 2.5$ per gig in Quebec as stated on Bells website.
===
Chronoss the error in your calculation is this:
60-gigs free (however you don’t really know what the current month will calculate because of their B/W tracking errors)
so, at 100-gigs it would be 40-gigs
However, four scenario’s arise because of Bell’s B/W tracker defects.
Could be any of the following:
1. 40-gigs over as is would be:
Ontario: 60$ in B/W over charges. so you get a max of 30$ charged (max of 30$ on B/W over charges)
Quebec: 100$ n B/W over charges. so you get a max of 30$ charged (max of 30$ on B/W over charges) Also i’m not sure if QC has the max of 30$ B/W over charges (will assume it does).
2. The tracker may only catch 80 gigs for the month in question instead of the full 100-gigs (due to its defects)
So what will happen is you will be billed for a total of 20-gigs over and 20-gigs can be transferred over to the next month (even though you didn’t use any B/W on the new month).
So you get this:
Ontario Month 1: 30$ in over charges
Ontario Month 2: 30$ in over charges *for no reason* + Customer didn’t get their full B/W allowance
Quebec Month 1: 50$ (or a max of 30$) in over charges
Quebec Month 2: 50$ (or a max of 30$) in over charges in *for no reason* + Customer didn’t get their full B/W allowance
This is Double dipping and double charging the customer twice for the same thing and also cheating them out of their full B/W allowance.
3. Now a couple of months ago when there was no max limit they charged on B/W. It was the sky is the limit B/W charging
so we had this:
Ontario: 60$ in B/W over charges.
Quebec: 100$ n B/W over charges.
4. Now a couple of months ago when there was no max limit they charged on B/W. It was the sky is the limit B/W charging
so we had this (Same as #3)
Ontario Month 1: 30$
Ontario Month 2: 30$ Customer didn’t get their full B/W allowance
Quebec Month 1: 50$
Quebec Month 2: 50$ Customer didn’t get their full B/W allowance
So HOW MUCH did Bell steal over the year from their customers? I recall this very same problem in their old forum from last spring and during the past summer. This all started with when they introduced the throttle. How long ago was that?
How many people are aware?
Now keep in mind also, Quebec users up until this year were not on a 60-gig limit as Ontario was. They were on a 30-gig limit instead.
There is also references in the french version of Bell’s forum where a Quebec user is supposed to have 60-gig of B/W allowance and BEll has him on 30-gig.
Now this also raises a question of concern special just for Quebec Bell Internet users. How many have they left on this 30-gig limit and charging them almost double the Ontario B/W rate for NO reason?
So now we get into more scenario’s, based solely on the Quebec Bell users.
So I agree with the questions raised above:
WHO will take care of this mess?
WHO will get peoples money back?
WHO will audit the whole mess going back a year (maybe more)?
Do you trust Bell to investigate it?
The “Bell Billing Supervisor employee’s (Alexander and the Moderator) in that forum already did an investigation. Read the conclusion of their investigation in the article or in Bell’s own forum.
So I think there are more scenario’s than this article mentions. Some unique only to Quebec ans the rest that affect both Quebec and Ontario users.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:03 am
@Devil’s Advocate After reading the reader-write calculations above, how many of the population will even have time to do all this? Or even grasp it?
Many don’t grasp that 2-meg is not 7-meg.
February 1st, 2009 at 12:06 am
Anyone who is stupid enough to believe the advertising that Bell and Rogers put about and not look beneath the candy coated topping to see the maggots and decay beneath deserve the nasty surprise.
Oh wait no. They don’t. There are supposed to be watchdogs in place to prevent this kind of thing from happening to people, to protect people, to ensure fairness and transparency in telecommunications business practices.
They clearly are not working. Very, very clearly.
It is about time that the CRTC were held to account for all the corruption that is, it has to be said, abundantly clear within their organization.
Whatever replaces the CRTC should be looking into breaking the Bell monopoly on the last mile by breaking up Bell. Breaking the stranglehold of the big media companies on internet connections by mandating by law no throttling, no traffic shaping, that the customer receives what the customer pays for.
Its sad that with the greedy animals we have in power this will not happen.
February 1st, 2009 at 1:50 am
30 respectively 60 gigs?
Holy horse feces!
Quote:
Time elapsed: 1d 10h
Downloaded: 45.2 GB
…
Total Size: 73.8 GB
:Unquote
(Some language educational stuff only that one)
Thank Bram I#m not with Bell nor that my ISP does not offer unlimited bandwith plans.
I guess my ISP would gone mad (or not if they had overcharge rates like Bell hits their milking cows aka paying customers with) given such statistics in my µtorrent:
—————————
µTorrent
—————————
Total Uploaded: 72.6 GB
Total Downloaded: 647 GB
Total Ratio: 0.112
Total Running Time: 901:13:26
Number of torrents added: 5188
Program launched: 24 times
Last launched: 30.01.2009 16:14:59
# incoming conns since start: 85884
# outgoing conns since start: 9466
# handshake: 34023
# connections: 36
# half-open: 6 (8 connecting)
—————————
OK
—————————
February 1st, 2009 at 1:53 am
Oh my god, all this from you people of all. Bell is bad but I’ll steal people material, what a bunch of self righteous mugs and wankers.
February 1st, 2009 at 2:41 am
who said anything about “steal people material”?
It would be “infringe peoples(here fat sociopathic corporation peoples) exclusive right to make a copy” if you want to be taken seriously in the first place, but either way:
Have you heard about the concept of creative commons?
Can you comprehend that the value of 60 Gigs a month (the limit that bell has in its contract) can be easily downloaded with such stuff!
And even my ~650 gigs, alleged that had been downloaded in ignorance of someones exclusive rights to copy; for educational usage there is this defense of “fair use” that can protect against claims of the guy with the license to ki.. sorry, i ment copy.
All though organised content probably would love when they had such a license.
That’s why they now try to move away from a fair trial and all that in their pursued to steal all the cultural heritage from society for their own corporate greed!
February 1st, 2009 at 2:57 am
I can’t comprehend much now, too many pints with the mates.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:09 am
Any time a company changes the rules or bills you wrongfully you have right to give them Notice of their errors with Notice of Understanding and Intent. Your Notary Public is your best friend. This guy/girl has powers to put even a judge in their place.
If they / Bell ignore notice you have the right to file Notice of Protest. This is telling them they are in dishonor and it’s their last chance before Notary Public sends them an order to pay whatever your rates are or whatever you feel is fair compensation.
If they / Bell don’t answer this then you tell Notary Public to charge them and any Justice of Peace, Sheriff, Judge and or Court can extract payment from the offender, which ever is appropriate. This is much cheaper than using a lawyer and getting mixed up in court where you will not get proper compensation for your troubles because the system is stacked against people.
To learn your rights and find more ways of dealing with any offenders go see thinkfree dot ca and also sign up for thinkfreeforums dot org. On these you will find sample forms, videos, and all information needed for your betterment of life.
When there you might also want to look up and realize what “amount” means and why not “value”.
There are more and more individuals doing this and it’s putting the rip-off’s back in their place. If you do it right you will get back your unlimited, privacy, upgrade all services to fiber, hold them responsible for every infraction and much more.
enjoy
February 1st, 2009 at 3:26 am
Are you on CRACK, drop the pipe, I know I’m a little foggy right now but a notary only is a state sanctioned witness to a signature on a document. I can buy one of their stamps for Texas on the Internet. Only a court can issue judgment by JP or judge enforced by sheriff. What kind of wacky legal system do you have? Did you invent it in a sovereign nation with some new type of fascist rules? OK so now you are making my head hurt, this must be a dream I must be sleep-posting no one can be this stupid. I’m off to bed only losers post this late on a Saturday night. Oops a self reflection moment.
February 1st, 2009 at 7:33 am
@ I’m always right
Canada is not Texas and never will be, unless Centre for International Governance Innovation (CIGI) in Waterloo will cause it. The subject is Bell Canada and not Ma Bell.
As far as I know and people I’ve talked to Notary Public has similar rights in U.S., not as strong though since U.S. Citizens didn’t retain their rights and let Federal Reserve take over. Even in the states you are able to file documents yourself and represent yourself in most capacities using a Notary as certification of original document.
I think it might be good idea you take a closer look at your Texas laws, statutes, and acts by using a law dictionary and getting the meanings of each word since they have same basis of British Maritime law (business law). Maybe if you’re good you can even deconstruct them and find actual meaning of each in “body of words”.
FYI: I don’t do crack but if you can send over an oz of primo weed oil a week with no pesticides or additives that be great, for medicinal purposes. I have this rash that I picked up in Texas … I think it’s called “I’m always” rash.
enjoy
February 1st, 2009 at 12:24 pm
LEAVE BELL GO WITH A CAIP MEMBER
PAY LESS GET MORE
February 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
This is an issue that should be brought to the Weights and Measures Canada and the Ontario Ministry of Government Services (Consumer Protection
February 1st, 2009 at 1:03 pm
sb Says: his is an issue that should be brought to the Weights and Measures Canada and the Ontario Ministry of Government Services (Consumer Protection
–
Excellent point. I’m going to check this out.
Did some of your post go funny with Word-Press? Looks incomplete. If it is, re-post!
February 1st, 2009 at 1:20 pm
@ sb
Could you contact me, please? p2pnet @ shaw dot ca
Cheers! And thanks…
February 1st, 2009 at 2:55 pm
We’re studying this since some of us were given desist notices and we find Bell and other internet providers have broken so many laws we don’t have enough of us to compile them all. Each act and statute we look at we find Bell has broken it in some way. The more we cross reference we find that every corporation has doing the same. It’s like the whole government, corporate and political entity has taken away the rights of Canadians and put them in a position of children where they can tell them what they should be doing and not telling them what the real truth is. It’s mind boggling.
Look at laws that go back to start of Canada and you find that even present government is unlawful. It’s all a big money grab and legalized slavery. It goes back to first settlers from England where the crown imposed shipping and maritime laws on first Canadians where it had no right to impose any laws on new land dwellers starting a new country.
Kudos to Devil’s Advocate, sb, k and others on this blog. Ones that stand out most and make the most sense are hook, Freeman, spook101, spook, Free, Free1 and anyone along these lines. Love the “get off your ass” and think “out of the box” comments.
Love and peace Jen
Oh did you know there’s not one instance of the word “love” in any of law books? So much for remedy. Anyone have Wayne Nagy email so we can give him pointers?
February 1st, 2009 at 3:12 pm
^^@ Jen:
Good stuff, and I’m going to do a post based on your comment.
Could you let me know a bit more about where you guys are studying? Please get in touch on or off the record – p2pnet @ shaw dot ca.
Cheers! And thanks …
February 1st, 2009 at 3:29 pm
law student Jen Says:
February 1st, 2009 at 2:55 pm
We’re studying this since some of us were given desist notices
See I see an opportunity here for all to get involved.
CIPPIC, CIPPIC law students, PIAC, especially the Quebec Consumer Union, and others, as a group thing (if that’s even possible).
The competition bureau already showed its colors
The CRTC already showed its colors
The industry minister and Industry Canada already showed its colors.
Huge miscarriage of justice here while the people get screwed out of their money and what they bought and pay for (especially the Quebecers).
February 1st, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I think i posted this in the comments before, but i think its very much relative to this:
http://homes.eff.org/~barlow/Declaration-Final.html
A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace
by John Perry Barlow
Governments of the Industrial World, you weary giants of flesh and steel, I come from Cyberspace, the new home of Mind. On behalf of the future, I ask you of the past to leave us alone. You are not welcome among us. You have no sovereignty where we gather.
We have no elected government, nor are we likely to have one, so I address you with no greater authority than that with which liberty itself always speaks. I declare the global social space we are building to be naturally independent of the tyrannies you seek to impose on us. You have no moral right to rule us nor do you possess any methods of enforcement we have true reason to fear.
Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. You have neither solicited nor received ours. We did not invite you. You do not know us, nor do you know our world. Cyberspace does not lie within your borders. Do not think that you can build it, as though it were a public construction project. You cannot. It is an act of nature and it grows itself through our collective actions.
You have not engaged in our great and gathering conversation, nor did you create the wealth of our marketplaces. You do not know our culture, our ethics, or the unwritten codes that already provide our society more order than could be obtained by any of your impositions.
You claim there are problems among us that you need to solve. You use this claim as an excuse to invade our precincts. Many of these problems don’t exist. Where there are real conflicts, where there are wrongs, we will identify them and address them by our means. We are forming our own Social Contract . This governance will arise according to the conditions of our world, not yours. Our world is different.
Cyberspace consists of transactions, relationships, and thought itself, arrayed like a standing wave in the web of our communications. Ours is a world that is both everywhere and nowhere, but it is not where bodies live.
We are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race, economic power, military force, or station of birth.
We are creating a world where anyone, anywhere may express his or her beliefs, no matter how singular, without fear of being coerced into silence or conformity.
Your legal concepts of property, expression, identity, movement, and context do not apply to us. They are all based on matter, and there is no matter here.
Our identities have no bodies, so, unlike you, we cannot obtain order by physical coercion. We believe that from ethics, enlightened self-interest, and the commonweal, our governance will emerge . Our identities may be distributed across many of your jurisdictions. The only law that all our constituent cultures would generally recognize is the Golden Rule. We hope we will be able to build our particular solutions on that basis. But we cannot accept the solutions you are attempting to impose.
In the United States, you have today created a law, the Telecommunications Reform Act, which repudiates your own Constitution and insults the dreams of Jefferson, Washington, Mill, Madison, DeToqueville, and Brandeis. These dreams must now be born anew in us.
You are terrified of your own children, since they are natives in a world where you will always be immigrants. Because you fear them, you entrust your bureaucracies with the parental responsibilities you are too cowardly to confront yourselves. In our world, all the sentiments and expressions of humanity, from the debasing to the angelic, are parts of a seamless whole, the global conversation of bits. We cannot separate the air that chokes from the air upon which wings beat.
In China, Germany, France, Russia, Singapore, Italy and the United States, you are trying to ward off the virus of liberty by erecting guard posts at the frontiers of Cyberspace. These may keep out the contagion for a small time, but they will not work in a world that will soon be blanketed in bit-bearing media.
Your increasingly obsolete information industries would perpetuate themselves by proposing laws, in America and elsewhere, that claim to own speech itself throughout the world. These laws would declare ideas to be another industrial product, no more noble than pig iron. In our world, whatever the human mind may create can be reproduced and distributed infinitely at no cost. The global conveyance of thought no longer requires your factories to accomplish.
These increasingly hostile and colonial measures place us in the same position as those previous lovers of freedom and self-determination who had to reject the authorities of distant, uninformed powers. We must declare our virtual selves immune to your sovereignty, even as we continue to consent to your rule over our bodies. We will spread ourselves across the Planet so that no one can arrest our thoughts.
We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more humane and fair than the world your governments have made before.
Davos, Switzerland
February 1st, 2009 at 6:05 pm
@Law student Jen.
Which law program are you in?
ty.
February 1st, 2009 at 6:31 pm
Why do you think we broke up AT&T. In your socialist country your national telephone company Bell Canada charges to much, what do you expect when it has produced the worlds most prolific copyright terrorists. We just found a way to get our royalties through the back door and you sheep are bending over for it and if you’ve got a problem with that then forget hunting with Cheney, I’ll send you people on a good ole fashioned Texas safari with Ted Nugent.
February 1st, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Nugent!?
Is he still alive??!
: P
Maybe we should get him to play a “non-stop resurrection concert” outside the CRTC headquarters.
Let ‘em know it’s a “gift” from all the happy Bell customers and all the people now registered on the DNCL!
February 2nd, 2009 at 12:45 am
WOW , ppl are finally starting to get it. Accept for maybe “I’m always right” but that’s allowed due to different mind set in USA.
The only way anyone with present knowledge is going to get remedy is if they sue the bastards. But if they sue they won’t get lost time, money, business, etc. because no lawyer will cut their own throat by going against the system that feeds em, and neither will any judge. Sure, the lawyers will get paid but not the users. They are in it for the money and money from users/people only.
Well you have an alternative which you have had all along they don’t want you to know about: Common law courts.
As k says all the info is on thinkfreeforums.org and should be any freeman on the land website.
Now if you can find a lawyer that will be your agent in this YOUR lawful way then all of us will have proper remedy. Good luck, I’ve searched all of Ontario and not found one.
One last thing, don’t ever settle for a lesser deal than your actual losses and any attempts to shut you up, that is a favorite trick they use to rip you off.
February 2nd, 2009 at 6:38 am
I messaged to this blog three times last night and once this morning and not one took. Look in your memory.
Love and peace Jen
February 2nd, 2009 at 8:18 am
@Jen:
I found your posts in the spam list. No idea why Akismet picked them out.
Frankly, I have concerns about your second post and I need to verify that you are what you say you are. You can safely email me at p2pnet @ shaw dot ca in spite of the fact you say, “your ISP is not on the list of secure ones so I won’t be able to email you”
Cheers! And thanks …
February 2nd, 2009 at 11:14 am
hook says: “Well you have an alternative which you have had all along they don’t want you to know about: Common law courts.”
I don’t know about your common system but if the name is any indication it is stacked against you, like the peoples court
or kangaroo court, we set them up so you run around in a maze until you run out of appellate appeals and the lawyers get rich
and you think you get justice, every once in a while we let one through so you think the system works.
February 2nd, 2009 at 12:02 pm
@Jon & Jen
http://www.gnupg.org/
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 pm
@ always right
Common laws in USA are different than Canada even though they come from the same place, King or Queen of Britain. Not England, England is a totally different animal.
Let’s me be a little clearer for everyone.
This is how Canada and United States came to be and how they operate [USA in rough outline only] … Please watch and learn carefully
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594427259151866285&hl=en
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6875190461311597622&hl=en
Fuller references of whole system can be found here
http://www.myspace.com/lakeshorebaby
With all due respect if you have a few months to explain it to you @ 300 per hr and 8 hrs a day and you pay for my time I’ll be glad to do it. If not then you can easily do searches through records and libraries and study it on your own time.
Enjoy
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Common law = precedent, there I just did in 2 secs. what would take you 2 months.
February 3rd, 2009 at 2:07 am
@ I’m always …
“Common law = precedent” oversimplified doesn’t cut it. How do you switch from corporate court to common?
“every once in a while we let one through” .. can you explain this to us?
February 3rd, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Got a throw the plebs a bone once in a while so they think they have a venue for redress, gotta keep the system “seem” fair,
keep the taxes coming in, country club and the such to pay for with taxpayer subsidized dollars ya know.
“How do you switch from corporate court to common?” don’t know or care I pay the firm to get the devil out of the details.
Gotta go tee time.