Facebook joins the P2P networks: II
p2pnet news view Freedom | P2P:- “As long as file sharing continues to have that ‘criminal’ label applied to it, and its users tracked, anyone directly clicking on a torrent link in Facebook would have to be clueless.”
That was Devil’s Advocate, yesterday, in a comment post to p2pnet’s story on The Pirate Bay co-opting Facebook.
Carefully qualifying his remarks, TPB mod disagreed.
So did Henry Emrich.
DA went on »»»
1) When you use a site like TPB, the click creates an obfuscated pathway, beginning with the encrypted tracker. Clicking a link in Facebook would add a traceable starting point to your activity, and verification of that on a Facebook server, thereby making you a more likely candidate for actual exposure.
2) The MAFIAA would immediately add Facebook to its growing list of sites it marks as ‘piracy promoting’, and start pressuring for FB’s cooperation and user information. Anyone who would trust Facebook at this point to choose the privacy of its users over threats of lawsuits would need his head examined.
3) As we already know, Facebook already keeps too many details for way too long, and can’t be trusted to delete anything. Zuckerbaby has always had this dream that, one day, everyone will stop looking too closely, allowing him to monetize all of it. You can be sure, if he doesn’t put up some form of objection to the TPB plan, it would be because he sees some potential to exploit P2P in some way.
Personally, I think TPB has been a revolution in itself. They’re innovative, and determined to correct the world’s thinking on file sharing, regardless of the ‘implications’ their activities may bring upon themselves. But, I believe, in wanting to have torrent links promoted through FB, they may have not considered what trouble may result for Facebook and its users. Being used to having more legal shelter in their part of the world, they may not fully realize how those elsewhere may become victims of a sick campaign that hasn’t yet been properly defeated.
Said Henry Emrich »»»
1. I don’t think people would have to be ‘clueless’ to click on the Facebook link at all. So it creates a ‘traceable starting point?’ The RIAA can’t even manage to get THAT much right. The points you raise are valid to some extent, but they fail to take into account the fundamental question: including torrent links on facebook or anywhere else will probably increase the amount of torrent use (which is already so astronomically huge that the chances of being sued over it are vanishingly small as it is.)
2. Much as the RIAA and their crony-goons would like us to believe, the legal system is grindingly slow, insanely cumbersome, and tragically overburdened (ever new moral panic they manage to ignite just adds to that fact.) The U.S. has the largest proportion of it’s population incarcerated as is, and there’s no evidence that the RIAA or their fumble-puppets (such as Mediadefender, Clusseau, or whatever else) have the resources to meaningfully combat the p2p thing (mindless jabbering about ‘the cell next to Daniel Dove’ notwithstanding.)
3. I’m pretty sure that the guys at TPB would have it so that the link which gets embedded is equivalent to the ones you find via search results. Don’t take this the wrong way, but you are seriously underestimating TPB if you think that they haven’t already figured out the potential problems you’ve just highlighted (and I’m not just a fanboy for saying that.)
Having said that, thanks for raising the objections. I just think you’re overstating the risks, and overestimating the opposition (The RIAA have spent so much time being technophobic assholes â as demonstrated by how their sockpuppets performed during the TPB trial etc.)
The most likely outcome of the facebook thing would be a vast upsurge in torrent usage, resulting in the RIAA vermin having even more on their plate. You think .003 percent constitutes ’success’, just wait until Facebook allows the less-techie types to start torrenting. Then you’ll see the numbers go from 9 million to 20 million while a vanishingly-small dribble of lawsuits grinds through the courts, and even more publicity against the lawsuits that DO manage to happen.
Also, ‘Zuckerbaby’ as you call him â like all corporate weasels â needs to tread the fine line between being a money-grubbing scumbag, and pissing off the users. Mediadefender was destroyed by, what, one guy leaking emails? You really think a ’social networking’ site could survive (much less continue milking people) if it’s shown to be an RIAA beartrap?
To sum up:
1. The TPB guys are smart and tech-savvy enough that they most likely wouldn’t deploy something like this unless it was secured.
2. The Alphabet-soup Cartels are all technically-illiterate, ham-fisted corporate scumbags motivated solely by greed. They are ALSO already seriously overburdened as it is, and desperately trying to retain even a shred of positive publicity.
3. Facebook can’t AFFORD to sell it’s user-base out in the way you’re concerned about â not if it wants to survive.[DA had a response to Henry here.]
Added TPB mod kdsde @ DA with the rider, “While I’m a MOD at TPB, this comment is NOT an official statement by TPB but solely my personal opinion and should be treated as such. Further note for prosecutors: I’m NOT one of the “~10 guys with the SSL keys” to the servers. See trial transcript for context of that statement 
»»»
so what? Facebook (’FB’) has records that someone had embedded and/or clicked a link.
Contrary to what the report – that NYCL also cites – says, you don’t download ‘right away’ with those facebook links.
On the The Pirate Bay (’TPB’) you have different types of ‘pages’ that you can reach with a link.
There is of course the famous section where the TPB owners mock those american companies that think that their DMCA is the new world order that works everywhere. The overview page of that section can be reached via a link to thepiratebay.org/legal
The stuff interesting for the issue at hand happends in the ‘userspace’ though.
What the FB link does, is using the overview page of the .torrent file.
Clicking such a link does NOT initiate the download. (and I guess the TPB guys are smart enough to NOT do it directly, since then they would have no exposure of the FB crowd to the IMO obnoxious adverts on the html overview pages.
Let me use as example a guy that sells (as it seems from first glance) home grown software for MAC:
This guy with the username DJMac317 has not only a homepage (whimsplucky.com/videovangelist) but is using the power of p2p to ease his server load.
You can see all his overview pages neatly arranged by using a link like thepiratebay.org/user/DJMac317/
If he or satisfied customers of him that want to help promote him would use the FB link offered on TPB it would use as value for the link the overview page of the specific torrent.
hxxp://xxx.facebook.com/share.php?u=hxxp://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4808768/VideoVangelist_1.4_Faster_and_improved_DVD_conversion
To have it ‘instantly download,’ as the Mashable article claimed, the link would have been the one that can be seen when hovering with your mouse over the ‘download this torrent’ text e.g.
hxxp://torrents.thepiratebay.org/4808768/VideoVangelist_1.4_Faster_and_improved_DVD_conversion.4808768.TPB.torrent
And even then there is no ‘instant’ download.
The user’s browser would have to be setup to handle .torrent files appropriately by invoking an installed Bittorrent client and giving that file to it. And the Bittorrent client must be setup to automaticly start and save every torrent file that is send to him via browser download into a specific directory.
That’s many more steps before you have something ‘instant’ IMO.
(But even if we assume for the sake of argument that FB users are so tech savvy to have done all that with their browser and with an installed Bittorrent client As pointed out, the FB link does not invoke this ‘instant’ thingy at all.)
And looking at html pages with textual descriptions .. not even the RIAA can serious claim that such a thing is a copyrightinfringement, can they?
Stay tuned.
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March 31st, 2009 at 7:58 am
Awesome discussion. Thanks. I wonder what Facebook has to say about all this; if anything at all.
March 31st, 2009 at 10:56 am
DA: (responding in this thread):
Quoting from the Wikipedia article on facebook:
“Zuckerberg was charged by the administration with breach of security, violating copyrights and violating individual privacy and faced expulsion, but ultimately the charges were dropped.[12] ”
Okay, so the first thing we know is that Zuckerberg played “fast and loose” as regards the current IP laws. (I dunno, but to my way of thinking, this is potentially a good thing in regard to the torrent thing.)
“Facebook was then opened on September 26, 2006 to everyone of ages 13 and older with a valid e-mail address.”
So much for your concern about “real names” etc. — you really honestly believe that at least a fairly-significant proportion of facebook users haven’t dedicated an email address which they use specifically for signing up for stuff?
The notion that email addresses, IP addresses, and street addresses are equivalent might make sense to the RIAA or IFPI or their goons, but it’s simply not true, as we both know.
“The website is free to users, but generates revenue from advertising. This includes banner ads.[42] Users can create profiles including photos and lists of personal interests, exchange private or public messages, and join groups of friends.[43] By default, the viewing of detailed profile data is restricted to users from the same network and “reasonable community limitations.”
So, uh, the easiest precaution you can take in regard to adding torrent links to facebook would seem to be:
1. Dedicate an email address specifically to signing up for sites. (Something pretty much everybody does anyway.)
2. Since the site is ad-supported, there’s no “premium” version which requires “real world” data such as Credit card info, street addresses, etc., so that’s another strike against your concerns.
3. As KD-whosis pointed out, the links go to the info page on TPB, and — as was covered in the TPB trial — TPB itself has nothing to do with the actual “transfer” other than supplying the initial torrent file etc.
Add to this the fact that Zuckerberg STARTED the precursor to facebook by doing things that went against the IP-fascism of our time (and people are still suing him over it), and the chances of him playing nice with the RIAA/MPAA are pretty slim.
I think your concerns would be far more justified if the torrent links were only available via a “premium subscription” or something, but if it’s just freely-viewable links in a profile page that don’t even actually START the download, well….it’s just not as concernful, for the reasons I mentioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook
March 31st, 2009 at 10:59 am
fa$ebook already knows about it, have for a time. and they let it walk, knowing it will increase their sheeple metrics. the s at TPB are ingenious in this rollout. its not so much a MAFIAA beartrap as an arrow into the heart of corporate fucktards. what better way of pissing in their expensive whiskey than to create an even easier way to file share their precious crap.
stw
March 31st, 2009 at 12:14 pm
@Henry (and all):
I was under the impression that these proposed links were to download the torrent file directly. And, this had me scratching my head about TPB, as I know these guys aren’t dumb. Since all they’re doing is sending you to the torrent description page (where you would then download the .torr, as always), there isn’t any need to be worried as a Facebook user.
I’m relieved in that revelation.
That may not stop the MAFIAA from targetting FB, though.
As long as it smells like trouble for them, they’ll probably be around.
But, at least I know if they do, it’ll just end up being another nail in their coffin.
: )
I would still caution anyone that FB is not as devoid of personal information as you would think. As I said, the 3rd-party tracking is a real concern, as it allows what FB has to be married with details that can be acquired from tracking your habits. (Naturally, I’m talking about real details someone would volunteer to other sites.) FB has its own e-mail built into the pages, as well as message “walls” – lots of conversations going on between people who don’t think it’ll be seen by anyone else. (The jury’s still out on that.)
My original concern was based on the fact that FB was designed to unite friends, and that in order to do this, you needed to register with your name and a legitimate e-mail address. (How else would someone that’s lost track of you, FIND YOU?)
As far as Zuckerberg being some potential “IP rebel”, I can’t really comment on that. I can say, he’s first driven toward any idea where there’s a potential for profit. I don’t think it matters to him too much what rules he breaks or how many people get mad, as long as he gets away with it. Did he “steal” the FB idea from his college friends? Who really knows. ; )
March 31st, 2009 at 12:23 pm
@ surfer.
You have a definite way with words.
Cheers!
March 31st, 2009 at 9:46 pm
@Jon/Surfer…
I wholeheartedly agree!