Is Swine Flu source leaked military weapon?
p2pnet news view | Off Topic:- The caption to the Wikipedia Library of Congress pic on the right reads: “Two American Red Cross nurses demonstrate treatment practices during the influenza pandemic of 1918.”
Called the Spanish Flu, the pandemic lasted from March 1918 to June 1920, says the story, going on:
“It is estimated that anywhere from 20 to 100 million people were killed worldwide, or the approximate equivalent of one third of the population of Europe, more than double the number killed in World War I.”
Are we now facing another pandemic from Swine Flu, aka A-H1N1, which appears to have started in Mexico?
“The World Health Organization hasn’t yet declared swine flu a global pandemic – but already news of the unusual bug that began in Mexico is leaving people panicked and uncertain,” says the Globe and Mail, going on:
“There is still much that experts don’t understand about the epidemiology of the outbreak. They cannot say why those infected in Mexico, where the outbreak is known as la gripe porcina, are between the ages of 20 and 50 – not a population normally vulnerable to flu. Infectious disease specialists also don’t yet know why the six confirmed cases in Canada and the 40 in the United States appear to be more mild.”
The story has Donald Low, medical director of Ontario’s public health laboratories and chief microbiologist at Toronto’s Mount Sinai Hospital, saying, “This flu has never before been seen in pigs or humans, which means we don’t know its capabilities. We are seeing this flu in its very early stages and we must continue to monitor it. We don’t have the epidemiology to define whether it’s seasonal flu or more like the flu of 1968, where one in every 100 people died.”
Is the Swine Flu is a leaked military weapon? – asks Online Journal, continuing:
“Our Mexico City source said a top scientist for the United Nations, who has examined the outbreak of the deadly Ebola virus in Africa, as well as HIV/AIDS victims, concluded that H1N1 possesses certain transmission ‘vectors’ that suggest that the new flu strain has been genetically-manufactured as a military biological warfare weapon. The UN expert believes that Ebola, HIV/AIDS, and the current A-H1N1 swine flu virus are biological warfare agents.”
True or not, the World Health Organisation, “warned today that swine flu can no longer be contained, as the virus spread to Asia and the Middle East, with the first cases confirmed in New Zealand and Israel,” says The Guardian.
“The virus, an apparently new strain of the H1N1 flu, has now been confirmed in seven countries, and suspected outbreaks are being investigated in other places including Ireland, Germany, Italy, Sweden and Denmark.,” says the story, adding:
“The WHO’s deputy head, Keiji Fukuda, warned countries to consider urgently how best to deal with a possible mass outbreak, given that closing international borders would have little impact now. ‘At this time containment is not a feasible option,’ he said.”
Globe and Mail – How to prepare for a pandemic, April 28, 2009
Online Journal – New swine flu feared to be weaponized strain, April 27, 2009
The Guardian – Swine flu unstoppable, WHO warns, April 28, 2009
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April 28th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Online Journal’s “citation” of a “top-ranking” UN Scientist is little more than fearmongering.
April 28th, 2009 at 11:51 am
I guess the financial “crisis” isn’t scaring enough people so now they have to take a few cases (world wide are we even past 100?). We have 46 in Canada and US combined, that’s hardly worth fretting over compared to 1918’s outbreak, or the Black Plague.
At which point can we stop living in fear? At which point will the media stop using the most dramatic words to keep people in fear so they will buy their news?
To add to the spread of fear to boost the stocks of pharm companies you have people suspecting the military of causing this, and HIV and Ebola, and probably Cancer too while were at it. Hell, didn’t the military create the common cold that’s yet to be cured? What about hepatitis, diabetes, rabies, etc… anything that they can create a vaccine for? Does the military have heavy investments in pharmaceutical companies and this is how they generate financial support for themselves?
Ugh, enough with the speculation! Isolate those who are sick, find the source of it, take care of those who are ill while keeping them away from spreading the illness, and stop the damn “the world is going to end because of …” speech.
April 28th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Yeah – an outbreak of a nasty virus must be a conspiracy.
It cannot possibly be because Mexico is a dirt poor underdeveloped nation with all kinds of public health shortcomings ranging from polluted air, poor sanitation, limited vaccination programs, lack of decent health care infastructure, people living in close proximity to livestock, and overcrowding. No, there’s no way a nasty virus could naturally come from this area of the world. The world governments have WAY more power than that and are manufacturing these viruses!
I suspect these conspiracy nuts just can’t grasp the fact that the world is a little more chaotic than they are comfortable with.
April 28th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
It would be nice to be able to just dismiss the possibility of a leaked military virus, but it is common knowledge now that the US Military has been the culprit in a number of such diseases. AIDS, Anthrax, and Ebola are just 3 of the ones confirmed to be the direct result of leaked military R&D. There’s about 40 more on that list.
As long as the eugenicists are still out there, I’d say it’s not only perfectly logical to be concerned with this stuff, but in your best interests to educate yourselves on what’s already been done, and what’s still going on. Don’t forget, we’re talking about a class of people who think nothing of introducing harmful elements into your lives in the name of profit and even global population reduction.
Questions people should ask, but don’t…
1) Do you know what’s in the vaccines they’re insisting on shooting into your children?
(Do you even know how they’re developed, or how much harm they have caused the right people, or if any of it is right for your children?)
2) Do you know how much stannus flouride (iron-based) is in your drinking water?
(Do you even know what it is, or why it’s there, or how much of it is/was used, or if it actually should be used at all?)
3) Do you know how wide-spread the practice of genetic food modification is?
(Do you even know if you’re eating any GM food products, or what any of the implications of it are?)
4) Do you know how truly evil the people behind these efforts really are?
(Do you even know who I’m talking about, or that they exist at all?)
x) etc., etc., etc. There’s lots more.
In the light of everything going on these days, it is totally ignorant and foolhardy to dismiss any discussion of this stuff as “fear mongering”, or “conspiracy theories”. Look this stuff up! (What you don’t know may already be killing you.)
April 28th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
@Devil’s Advocate:
Is any of this documented by external testing and validation? Or is it hear-say?
That’s the problem with conspiracy theories and fear mongering. There IS a lot of it and it is false. It becomes fishy when you do not have actual valid scientific data to back something up.
While I do not dismiss the possibility, I do not jump to the conclusion that the military/government is behind the majority of the crises that exist in the world today.
One has to remain objective because if you look hard enough your natural bias to find what you want to find will lead you to find what you think is what you wanted to find. In reality, it was your bias that prevented you from considering other alternatives, how ever unlikely they support your original hypothesis.
So it is equally foolhardy to automatically assume that anything that goes on in the world is non-natural and created by malicious humans for power and financial gain.
There must be a balance and it must be based-upon facts, not second guesses or the biased beliefs of those whose sole existence is to validate their suspicious of the supposed malicious elite.
April 28th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Ebola and HIV/AIDS are naturally occuring virus. There is no doubt about that.
We could conceivably use one of these virus as a weapon. It might be do-alble for a flu virus type A such as the swine flu but not for Ebola or HIV.
Why? HIV is too poorly infectious to be effective as a weapon. You can not spread it through the air for exemple. It would not work.
Ebola is way too deadly and kill people so fast that it shut down it’s one propagation by creating a vacuum of host arround the infection point.
I never believed that biological weapons can have military value because if your weapon is effective there is no way to contain it and it will come back at you for sure, particularly on a battle field.
April 28th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Devil’s Advocate:
Questions people should ask, but donâtâ¦
1) Do you know whatâs in the vaccines theyâre insisting on shooting into your children?
Yes, their development has been published and the technology has worked for over a hundred years and have eradicated (or nearly eradicated) crippling and deadly infectious diseases such as smallpox, polio, measles, rubella, hepatitis (liver cancer!), diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis, haemophilus, streptococcal pneumonia, etc. Almost all cases of these diseases are in non-vaccinated people. Plus, vaccines meet far more strict safety standards and protocols than other forms of medicine and have fewer and less severe side effects than ANY prescription or natural herbal remedies. Hell, people who design and sell these vaccines give them to their own kids. The poorest countries in the world lack these vaccines and are subsequently crippled economically because of the disease burden of these infections. Questioning the value of vaccines is ignorant at the very least, and racist and prejudiced at the very most.
2) Do you know how much stannus flouride (iron-based) is in your drinking water?
Yes. Once again, most municipalities who add it have held public consultations and listen to advice of medical and dental authorities. The levels they add are no secret, either. Toxicology data on fluoride has been available for over a hundred years, and if you don’t believe it is safe or beneficial, you are free to take samples of your own drinking water and have it analyzed at any private lab of your choice. Hell, I’m sure you could buy the instruments or borrow lab space from a university chem lab and test it yourself. It’s no coincidence that the prevalence of dental caries (cavities) has gone down significantly when fluoridation is introduced. Interesting note – municipalities in Japan don’t add fluoride to their water, and people’s teeth there are horrible. And Japan doesn’t avoid fluoride in water for health reasons, either – they still allow indoor smoking in hospitals and in fitness centers.
3) Do you know how wide-spread the practice of genetic food modification is?
Yes, it’s pretty widespread. But we have been cross-breeding and artificially selecting crops and farm animals for a good 10,000 years or so. Broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, brussel sprouts, and colorhabi are all artificially -selected from wild mustard thousands of years ago. Yeah – those things sure cause us a lot of harm. As far as manipulation at the molecular biology level, at least when we transfer genes from one plant into another we KNOW what they are, instead of the old-fashioned method of taking seeds and “forcing” thousands of genes (most of them not known!) together to make new exotic fruits such as the artificially-produced (hundreds of years ago) nectarines! Gasp! Plus, many of these pest-resistant and drought-resistant crops have saved people’s lives in poor regions of the world. Once again, the backlash against modern agricultural technology is an example of prejudice against the less fortunate people. If you took away this research, people in many parts of the world would not stand a chance at looking after themselves.
4) Do you know how truly university college and work their asses off through grad school are all using their scientific research to get us.
Not a single one just wants to do a good job and contibute something meaningful to society. All of them should be shot, and our universities and research labs should be burned to the ground. We can all go back to the good old days where we toil in the fields ourselves to grow our own plants for consumption, and when somebody gets sick we consult the village witch doctor to do a dance to cure them.
Conspiracy theorists are idiots.
April 28th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
@Matty:
Thanks, I almost wet my pants at 4), quite funny.
April 28th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
@Matt/Robert…
“Questioning the value of vaccines is ignorant at the very least, and racist and prejudiced at the very most.”
1) FAILURE TO QUESTION anything like that is ignorant.
2) WTF does racism or prejudice fit in with this?!
_____________________________________
You guys call for “scientific data”, yet you both simply repeat what you’re told yourselves.
Doing so doesn’t dismiss the fact that lots of shit has been going on for years that you 2 obviously haven’t had cause to question. Many educated professionals are very involved in this subject, and would probably differ with you on what constitutes a “conspiracy theory”.
It might interest you to know I once had your “faith in the system”. But, I was personally drawn in to this subject some time ago, and had to face some pretty eye-opening facts about it all.
I simply related to you some things that have been very well documented.
You can say what you will about me personally, but I didn’t write it.
And, you can Google your brains out. I’m not going to placate you.
The info’s out there – deny it or challenge it – but you’re gonna need more than childish ranting if you intend to actually debunk it.
All you’ve succeeded in doing so far is demonstrate your ignorance.
_____________________________________
“Conspiracy theorists are idiots.”
This very statement only illustrates that ignorance.
The statement itself is also illogical, anyway.
April 28th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
@Devil’s Advocate:
1) FAILURE TO QUESTION anything like that is ignorant.
Who says we failed to question? Clearly Matty’s response demonstrates that we DID question and were satisfied with the results.
To dismiss our comments as you have really illustrates your ignorance to our procedures and testing and verification of claims that were made. You’re assuming we take things at face value because we don’t believe the government/military involvement is as extensive as you believe. It’s not all or nothing. The world is not digital. It is possible that the military/government have been involved in testing, we know that from the CIA reports on LSD with mind control. However, that doesn’t mean they did everything, as you’re assuming and that’s what we are calling you on.
The problem with many conspiracy theorists, and that’s why Matty calls them idiots, is that no matter how many ways you disprove what they say, the conspiracy theorist will come up with some new theory to try to support their belief.
April 28th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
With regards to GM food, I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole. While what Matty says is correct, we should be more concerned with the type of GM food made by massive multinational companies. For example, farmers are required to enter into a formal agreement with Monsanto, which specifies that new seed must be purchased every year, and an annual licensing fee of C$15 per acre be paid. Roundup Ready Canola was introduced in Canada in 1996, and by 1998, it accounted for 25% of the country’s canola area. (From Wikipedia).
If you want to watch a real scary movie, just check the Bay for “The World According to Monsanto”. It is truly stomach churning stuff, these bio GM corporate bastards are worst then the MAFIAA, especially if they are given control of our food.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_according_to_Monsanto
A Truly EVIL corporation.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
“Who says we failed to question?”
When someone spits out “the brochure version” to these questions, it’s quite obvious they haven’t actually questioned anything themselves. (They’re just taking someone else’s word that all the right things were done, and all the results have been positive.)
For instance, do either of you have children, and did you actually question the act of vaccination or have any research into it, before allowing the needle to be administered… or did you simply go along with it because it was “expected” (”standard procedure”)?
The answer to that question is usually the latter.
That fact is the gist of what I was saying, not a statement of whether I believe we should/shouldn’t vaccinate, or whether I believe anything else is behind it. The central point is not necessarily about evil conspiracies – it’s about how complacent and vulnerable many people are to such abuses. We’re all too trusting of those who keep on proving we often shouldn’t.
___________________________
“To dismiss our comments as you have really illustrates your ignorance to our procedures and testing and verification of claims that were made.”
What do mean by “our procedures and testing”, exactly?
Am I to believe I’m addressing a vaccine developer?!
I dismiss your comments mostly because you go on about the design/purpose/goal of these things as if it offers some sort of proof that there’s never been any other agenda behind it at times. One thing doesn’t relate to the other. (eg. Just because piano wire was designed to make music, doesn’t prove that people don’t kill each other with it.)
___________________________
“However, that doesnât mean they did everything, as youâre assuming and thatâs what we are calling you on.”
Read back.
I never said I’m assuming anything.
All I said was we can’t automatically discount such a thought, and there are already potentially harmful practices in the works we’re already not questioning enough. I listed examples of things that have had a shitload of reports on why, whether you choose to accept that or not, and merely presented a series of very logical questions that people have been failing to ask.
Nothing more. Keep it real.
___________________________
“The problem with many conspiracy theorists…”
You guys both need to do your homework on the term “conspiracy”, and why these type of statements you’re making are clueless.
Geez! People seemed to understand the word better before Dubya’s Gang came along and “re-educated” everyone. Thanks to them, everytime someone doesn’t just accept an “offical story”, the labels “conspiracy theorist” and “nutjob” are automatically pulled out, usually to avoid more painful possibilities, or to avoid some pretty hard, but necessary questions.
Through it all you guys don’t actually have any idea what conspiracy theories I may or may not support. You’ve been too busy trying to ridicule me from the get-go, applying the “conspiracist” label before actually reading the questions in context, simply because I made a couple of statements you’re obviously not willing to accept or properly debunk. Doesn’t really make any difference to me, really.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
@Scaramouche…
Monsanto was actually foremost in my mind when I made my initial post.
Thanks for showing there are others following this deception.
@Matty…
If you do a little research on Monsanto, you may (should!) change your mind about the GM industry being such a God-send to poor countries. If you do enough research, you’ll do a complete 180 on that, and maybe a few other things. The Monsanto story leads you to some other points touched upon here.
(Nobody’s forcing you, of course.)
; )
April 28th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Monstanto is the devil incarnate for greed & evil. The MAFIAA are like angels compared to them. Now the old fashion way, was that each year farmers keep some of their crop aside to use the seeds to plant next years crop. All those poor 3rd world farmers, now have to pay a licensing fee & purchase new seeds every single year from Monsanto. And if they dont they will be SUED. If the wind blows the GM seeds onto somebody elses field who hasnt paid a licensing fee, THEY will be charged with theft or sued. Think of this as BIO DRM. These companies dont care if these people will starve because they cannot afford GM seeds, all they care about is profit.
April 28th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
And, Monsanto’s got some pretty scary connections to other “biological activities” that affect us all…
But, I better give a certain few a chance to catch up to that!
; )
April 29th, 2009 at 12:48 am
come on lets continue this debate, allways like it when smart people go at it…
April 29th, 2009 at 12:54 am
Devil’s Advocate:
First off, there are massive differences between healthy skepticism, cynicism, and paranoia.
I am all for asking questions. After all, that is how science and society advances – by asking lots and lots of questions. Your questions are typical questions of a scientific illiterate fear-mongerer. Asking alarmist-type of questions out of ignorance, such as whether we should still vaccinate our children or not, are a sure fire way to send us back to the dark ages. I say that question has to be out of ignorance, because one would have to be ignorant to ignore the proven track record of vaccines. Hell, if eradicating smallpox from the world (last case was in 1977) isn’t good enough to convince you that vaccines are the best way to keep the upper hand on potentially eradicatiable diseases such as measles and polio, then nothing is.
If you question something like vaccine safety and you don’t believe the CDC, health Canada, or World Health Organization “brochure version” answers to these questions, please educate yourself on the topic appropriately. And I don’t mean Googling it and cherry-picking sites that support your claim. that doesn’t teach you anything. No, please take some classes on infectious diseases and immunology. Then learn about some global health issues, and disease eradication. Learn about the history of vaccination and how 20% of all children used to die of preventable infectious diseases before the age of 1 only 80 years ago, and now it’s less than 1%. Learn about how vaccines are an effective way to combat microbial resistance to antibiotics. Learn about the devastating outbreak of measles in Massachusetts in the 1980s when public health officials decided that they didn’t need to support measles vaccines for kids anymore. Learn about the diphtheria epidemic in Russia after the collapse of the USSR (and it’s massive vaccination programs).
Please learn something instead of simply running your mouth about how every government in the world is out to sabotage our lives. They want to keep us healthy and working, you know – they don’t make any money off of us if we are sick at home. This is why I say you are prejudiced if you want to pull vaccines from the market – we are fortunate to receive these for free (through taxes, so not truly free I suppose). Elsewhere in the world people are getting paralyzed by polio and getting brain damaged from measles-related encephalitis because they don’t have vaccines. They would kill for freedom from these diseases like we have, yet people here are too busy questioning their usefulness and trying to sue vaccine-makers, which may jeopardize those unfortunate people from eventually eradicating some of the diseases that prevent them from improving their own quality of life. Honestly, I’m surprised anyone even bothers trying to prevent or cure diseases anymore. What’s next? Questioning the safety or necessity of clean water? Oh, wait – that’s the “fluoride” argument.
Think about it for five seconds – the most wealthy and affluent countries in the world with the highest standards of living and personal freedoms endorse and provide (NOT force!) vaccines for their people. Jenny McCarthy (who flunked year 1 of nursing college), Jim Carrey (a comedian actor), and the ignorant Muslim rulers of Nigeria (which is a polio hotspot because they refuse vaccines for their people because they think white people are giving them HIV and making them sterile with vaccines) question their usefulness.
Hmmm… who’s side would you trust?
April 29th, 2009 at 1:09 am
For the record, I DO have a child (she’s 4 years old now), and she is up-to-date on all her vaccinations.
However, there is a small chance that her immune system may not have developed immunity against one or more of the infectious agents that she was vaccinated against (nothing ever works 100% perfectly all the time), so she *might* still be susceptible to something like Measles or Hepatitis B. Therefore, I ALWAYS encourage other parents to please vaccinate their children as well. I went out of my way to help ensure my kid doesn’t make yours incredibly ill (or become permanently disabled or die) from a preventable infection, and the least you can do is return the favor.
In case you haven’t noticed, people who question the efficacy or safety of vaccines hits a real sore spot with me. The amount of misunderstanding of how the average person thinks vaccines work is really frightening and illustrates why scientific literacy needs to be emphasized in our education system more.
For the record I also hope you get your shots for Yellow fever, Japanese encephalitis, and Hepatitis A & B if you are traveling to Southeast Asia or Central America. Too many travelers return home with life-threatening conditions that were perfectly preventable if they just allowed vaccines to train their immune systems for combat first.
As for the GM issue with Monstanto, any problems and grievances look like they have to do with the Monstanto company and not with the GM technology itself.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:31 am
still you are getting your information from one source. (college) maybe that just as bad as chery picking.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:38 am
For the record my 2 small children are fully vaccinated. When you mention conspiracy theories people always tend to think of long greasy haired individuals sitting in darkened room wearing aluminum foil hats but thats not true. Usually where there is smoke there is fire. My own personal philosophy is dont jump to a conclusion & dont make up your mind straight away. Do your own research & then make an INFORMED choice.
Unfortunately the government & corporate interests very often dont have YOUR best interests at heart & will blow smoke up your arse – mainly though mainstream media. Thats the beauty of internet & thats why they are now trying so hard to censor, control & suppress it. You can do your own research & make up your own mind. Corporations exist only
I dont have a problem with GM food technology provided its properly tested. Proper testing takes many many years. Unfortunately Monsanto have a 70% – 100% market share of various GM foods, and often they do not fully test them & bypass government safety standards – proven by the various court cases against them amongst other things. With this sort of technology there cannot be any shortcuts taken. So with the situation as it is today & what I have researched, I refuse to touch any GM foods. Thats my own personal informed decision. As for everyone else, its their right to make up their own mind & decide whatever they please.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:47 am
The internet is such a double-edged sword. Why suppress or censor it (I know – because of things like monetary gain or whistle-blowers). But seriously, I think most people just choose to believe what they want to anyway.
April 29th, 2009 at 2:51 am
@Matty…
All I’m going to say at this point is that you keep going further and further in a direction I certainly wasn’t taking you.
And, all the time you’re doing that, you’re just throwing in more and more shit that doesn’t have anything to do with what I’m talking about. And, you’re still sniping. (Remember, that’s how this got started. You set the stage.)
Since you obviously can’t follow the context or meaning of what’s being said, or construct a paragraph free of childish insults, there’s not much point in arguing with you about any of this. That would just be “scientifically illiterate” on my part, now wouldn’t it?!
(Oh, pu-leeeze!)
For your information, the reference to Monsanto was a CLUE to what my posts were about, and not some simple, isolated incident involving one company. It was a clue to something you could have simply Googled and gotten countless hits for, and would have lead you to the rest. And, you wouldn’t have had to cherry-pick.
It’s not about “fear-mongering”.
It’s about the greedy psychopaths that are right out there in the open for you to see, if you turn your head and look.
It’s not a new story, nor is it something intelligent people have made a habit of denying. It’s been going on for some time now.
And, there’s no cherry picking involved here. There is currently a great deal of activity on such subjects of man-made viruses, vaccines, flouridated water, and GFM. Thousands of professionals and academics are voicing a variety of concerns – infinite publications are out there in a desperate effort to get people like yourself out of this “protective bubble” of denial they don’t even realize they’ve been in. Your reaction is common, and natural. People are so conditioned to believe they’re being so well looked after, they don’t allow themselves to believe anyone would mean them any harm. (9/11 was a classic piece of proof on that.)
As they say, you can lead a horse to water…
(At least the horse won’t blame you if it dies of dehydration because it didn’t take its head out of its ass and drink when given the opportunity.)
I’m through feeding the troll now, Jon.
(Sorry!) : )
)8 P>
April 29th, 2009 at 6:50 am
heh heh … I’m with Readers Write: “come on lets continue this debate, allways like it when smart people go at it⦔
This is a tough one, coming from someone who is teetering on the cusp of wearing a foil hat. Both sides of the argument have merit, but I think the discussion has gotten a bit off-topic. I think the hard part is to get a real grasp of how single-minded and greedy it is possible to become, but once you can fathom that, it is not such a leap of logic to imagine what kind of abberant behavior might result from that. While I know from experience that 90% of people are idiots, conspiracy theorists or not, I will say that the past 8 years have definitely been a strong indicator that our guv’ment don’t always operate above board. Add to that the fact that the 90% idiocy rate also applies to those in positions of power (also STRONGLY evidenced by the last 8 years =D) and I conclude that just because something is a really dumb idea doesn’t preclude the possibility that it won’t be attempted.
I agree with the statements about the internet being a source of information that many entities would like to get control over. Knowledge is power, after all, and what better way to control the direction of power than to control the flow of information? I am hoping that the sheer vastness of the net will keep it at least one step ahead of the gatekeepers, kinda like the little dutch boy trying to put a finger in the dam… but I think the mass media is reacting to the competition by stepping up the sensationalism. Personally I am disgusted with the yellow journalism that is more the rule than the exception in today’s mass media, and I am grateful for the particular education that I had for the ability to take it with a grain of salt. At the same time, I see that often the existence of “evil” is not so much evil as it is a result of clouded perception or judgement. After all, I think that very few people actually committ evil acts with the intent of furthering wickedness, but rather they imagine that what they are doing is for the best because they do not see clearly, and do not realize that they are making assumptions based on bad data. Fear is one of the biggest reasons for this, though often we don’t even realize what we are afraid of.
That all being said, let’s say that I would not be surprised to discover that any viral outbreak had some misguided science behind it, but I am hoping that reason has a tiny bit of a lead over complete idiocy in the circles of power, and instead suggest comparing hard numbers against the hype to see what pans out. It is difficult to tell from the news sources what exactly the climate of this “outbreak” really is due to the medias penchant for drama and exaggeration. As I understand it, it is a virus’s nature to be virulent, so the fact that a flu is highly contagious is not worrisome in and of itself, but rather more to the point is the question of whether this is a particularly more damaging virus that is out of proportion to the corresponding natural circumstances. We are living in close quarters as the population density continues to increase, and nature has a way of keeping balance when certain elements overextend themselves, so it is hardly unreasonable to expect that we might find our biggest battles being fought against microorganisms if we can’t learn to moderate our own situation and survival of the fittest remains the rule.
With that in mind, I remember coming down with chicken pox in grade school; average sick leave of about 2 weeks was the norm, but I was better in a week, and I had one friend was particularly hard hit and out for 3. I had strep once and felt like I got hit by a truck, but I got better. So my question is not so much about how to avoid catching the flu or avoiding it, but what are my chances of SURVIVING it should it prove unavoidable? Does this bug carry a disproportionate mortality rate, or are the people that are dying from it generally elderly or very young or otherwise immune-compromised or not able to take steps to recover like hydration and rest or the like? Exactly how many people ARE actually dying from it? Are there common factors in those succumbing to the illness like similarities in genetic makeup? Is the “super” part of “super-flu” its contagiousness or its debilitating effects? I don’t fear becoming ill so much as becoming DEAD, and this seems to be the kind of statistical information that the media is glossing over with the focus being on reporting the panicky reactions of people while simultaneously neglecting to point out the fact that peoples reactions to the news is NOT a danger barometer by any means, preferring to heighten the drama by adding to the hype so that people will tune in at 11:00. THAT is what I find to be irresponsible, though it is probably motivated more by greed than conspiracy.
No matter what we do, death is the inevitable consequence of life. I don’t think there is cause for suspicion of conspiracy or even of military stupidity unless it is an unnaturally specific or unnaturally broadbased contagion that is somehow doing more damage than it ought to in terms of the surrounding environmental circumstances. I am leaning towards the idea that concentrated populations and closed environments that actually concentrate pollutants are a more likely culprit than deliberate mischief, though I do not rule out unexpected consequences of scientific tampering that may have been better intentioned as well. (Example: whatever genetic guidance has been given to make some plants more hardy in some ways has cost them in others – I don’t think my aging is the only reason that mangoes don’t seem as fragrant or as flavorful as they did when I was 10.)
At any rate, I think we need to meet somewhere in the middle as far as trust and suspicion goes. In a world where we still haven’t learned not to kill each other over lesser differences, it isn’t so far fetched to think that we might not be sheltered from the folly of a few. If we didn’t understand that to some degree we would hardly be keeping tabs on sites like this in the first place, nor would there be a reason for their existence. And it also pays to be skeptical of skepticism so that fear of fearmongering doesn’t become its own monster. The day that we stop considering the merit of an opposing view is the day we hasten our own end.
April 29th, 2009 at 6:53 am
1. I didn’t actually read most of this — other than to skim the debate between DA and Matty.
(When I start seeing ad hominem on both sides, and claims that a particular point is “common knowledge” (such that neither side has to bother to post offsite links) I get bored.
2. When somebody uses the phrase “for the record”, it’s pretty obvious that the discussion has deteriorated beyond any recovery. What “record” are we talking about here? Are we addressing ourselves to some hypothetical researchers reading the “wayback machine” version of p2pnet on the Internet Archive 300 years from now? I don’t get it, mostly because I figure the only people reading something like that (if it’s even still actively maintained) will be historians, and they’ll have way better stuff to research than a squabble in the comments on some blog.
3. I’ve been around the “conspiratorial” worldview pretty much all my lilfe: a relative of mine tended toward getting his “news and views” from various “white-power” preacher types on shortwave radio during the 1990s. DA and Matty: I’d suggest — before continuing this weird little pissing contest or whatever it is — that you both head on over to Wikipedia and read up on a CIA operation named “cointelpro”.
It basically involved the CIA infiltrating dissident organizations and screwing with their minds.
I may be extremely cynical, but I’ve personally come to the conclusion that very probably a significant amount of the hysteria involving things like Flouridation, Chemtrails, GM food, weaponized plagues etc. is deliberately manufactured and disseminated by the very organizations such things claim to implicate.
Yeah, I’m cynical, maybe, but I’m also smart enough to know when I don’t know something first-hand.
DA: it’s discouraging to see you accusing Matty of being a troll, simply because he doesn’t agree with your assessments.
Matty: blanket condemntation of “conspiracy theorists” is equally short-sighted, because it basically requires that entire subjects be declared off-limits simply because they’re supposedly “conspiracy theories”. Prime example: I’m accutely concerned about stuff like corporate “personhood”, and the fact that it’s at the root of a lot of really bad shit going on in our culture.
Unfortunately, questioning corporate power (or even the status quo in regard to Intellectual Property laws) got our erstwhile buddy “Sam I Am” to accuse me of simply being “anti-business”.
He accused Jon of exhibiting “an anarchist’s public glee” or some such drivel.
So pardon me if I can’t bring myself to take either “side” of this so-called “debate” seriously.
When you’re done calling one another names and insulting one another’s intelligence, I’ll maybe check back in.
(I feel much better, now.)
April 29th, 2009 at 7:56 am
@ Scaramouche: “For the record my 2 small children are fully vaccinated”
Our one daughter isn’t, and we made the decision not to expose her after carefully researching the pros and cons.
Cheers!
April 29th, 2009 at 9:28 am
@ Jon
Fair enough, while I don’t agree with you on this one, its your decision to make. As adults we have to deal with the consequences of our decision, lets hope that neither of us made the wrong one.
Blindly believing every conspiracy theory is just as silly as blindly believing everything that comes out of the mainstream media. What I DO know for a fact is that we dont know much at all really. Who knows what goes on in secret & behind closed doors, I am sure its very very scary. Conspiracies dont go on forever, they are broken sooner or later. How many years of safe vaccines have we had, if there was something dodgy going on iam sure someone would have caught onto it by now. They cant silence everyone!
Unfortunately the current political & corporate climate lets corporations & politicians prosecute, attack & discredit whistleblowers with impunity. How many times have we seen hackers sued for discovering flaws in hardware & software? Just look at wikileaks raided at the behest of the Australian government after they published the censor list.
April 29th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I admit that my blanket statements about conspiracy theorists was a complete ham-fisted overgeneralization. After all, conspiracies DO exist. But most of the ones I hear all the time are completely irrational.
It’s just that the prospect of this swine flu from Mexico being a military weapon made me laugh. If you’ve been to Mexico City, it becomes pretty apparent that infectious disease outbreaks in that part of the world don’t need any help. In this part of the world it is rare that anyone dies of an infectious disease of any kind. Think about all the people you know who died – I bet the majority of them were killed in accidents or died from chronic non-infectious diseases such as heart attack, stroke, or some form of cancer. In most African countries the majority of people die from infections that we have successfully controlled.
By all means keep a close eye on your surroundings and our elected officials. I believe that most of them do have good intentions, but they can also be easily misled. We have great power at our fingertips with the internet being a tool for communication and information (note – it really only has information; the internet has never been called the “knowledge” or “wisdom” superhighway). But with this power of information (both accurate and inaccurate) comes responsibility. I think it’s completely irresponsible to be asking alarmist questions about routine interventions (that were based on sound and valid medical science to begin with) and have so obviously improved our health, increased our life expectancy, and continue to maintain our quality of life by making things like infectious diseases an afterthought.
Troll my ass.
April 29th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Granted. These days corporations put their profit first and the interest of the public. This is blaring obvious for the corporation of criminal parasites in the entairtainment parasites and it is also true for the pharamceuticals industry.
This being said it is not in the finacial interest of pharmaceutical companies to show up with harmful drug in general and vaccine in particular. True nothing is perfectly safe and vaccine are no exception. However data show that the benefit of very most vaccine far outweigh the risk. People forgot about polyomelitism, small pox, tetani, diphteria and so on and so on that devastated many gerneration of kids until the vaccine. Most vaccine are very safe and actually has becam safer over the years.
Do the study and browse internet about a particular vaccine you are considering to see the pro and the con if you want too. There is a lot of BS on internet but if you search lonng enough you will find the consensus and trust me th econsensus is pretty accurate.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
“The Consensus is pretty accurate”.
Depends on how that “consensus” was generated.
It’s relatively simple to “stack the deck” in favor of whatever you WANT the “consensus” to eventually be.
All you have to do is selectively fund and publicize what you regard as the “correct” viewpoints, and marginalize (by whatever means) outside/dissident viewpoints. That’s actually easier than you might think, as well: just brand a particular question as somehow inherently heretical, and/or describe it was “quackery”. Research on, for example, biofeedback and alternate states of consciousness isn’t nearly where it should be, due to the fact that it’s widely believed to be “woo-woo”.
So both “sides” of this debate need to just stop talking past one another.
DA: Stop accusing Matty of being a troll — he’s actually at least attempting to participate in the discussion (albeit from a different viewpoint than you.) We know trolls by, for example, their tendency to not even acknowledge what their opponents say, and just keep sermonizing. (Sam was great for that — I’d present vast swaths of evidence for my position, and he’d just keep “misunderstanding” it.)
So at least give Matty the benefit of the doubt, and don’t just accuse him of being some kind of stupid jackass just because you think his viewpoint is a little too close to “orthodoxy”.
Matty:
Glad to see that you apologized for/clarified your blanket statement about “conspiracy theorists”.
One of the truly beautiful things about the Internet is the way that different “sides” of issues can get themselves heard.
The “consensus” emerging from a relatively-level informational playing-field (where both sides can publicize their views, organize etc.), and the “consensus” created by a bunch of strategically-placed “think tanks” are two very different things.
I personally think the corporate and political elite gain immensely from most “conspiracy” stuff, if for no other reason than it creates a climate of paranoia, and makes people reflexively shy away from particular ideas.
Perfect example of this is the “militia” movement in the USA in the 1990s:
One of the big concerns was that the U.N. would mutate into what they described as a “totalitarian socialist one-world government”, which would then be oppressive. So what do most of these people see as an alternative? Rabid nationalism and some mix of White-racialist survivalist stuff.
(They never stopped to think that an oppressive regime would be MORE easily created under the banner of the U.S. (”Worlds only superpower”.)
So yeah, I tend to be really cynical about ALL viewpionts, and take all sides with at least a grain of salt.
To clarify, I think much of the concern about vaccines comes not so much from the vaccines themselves, as from the preservatives and such used in their production. (That’s one of the big issues among folks who are concerned that Thimerosol might be involved in Autism.)
So everybody calm down — our Military-Industrial overlords have better ways to amuse themselves (and we, the serfs) than global pandemics. Also, if they built it, they’d probably build in a “fail-safe” to be able to shut it down — else, what kind of “weapon” would it be?
(That’s their basic problem with nukes — way too destructive, and serious blowback potential to your own side, what with radiation and suchlike.)
So everybody just chill.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:53 am
da’s right on. open your eyes sheeple.
April 30th, 2009 at 1:42 am
My goodness! Whatever happened to living in harmony, respecting diversity (of opinion too) and remaining open to the infinite learning opportunities presented by our world. I agree with Matty, people will believe what they want to believe, regardless of the contradictory evidence surrounding them. This is their right. By all means, intelligently debate the issues, but please, out of respect for our fellow human beings, can we leave the name-calling, labels and put-downs aside? Wishing everyone blessings and peace. C
April 30th, 2009 at 2:06 am
@Matty:
I never actually thought you were a troll.
I just used the term as a backhanded comment.
Call it a feeble attempt at a “colourful finish”.
And, I didn’t mean it.
I do apologize for that, and will make a concerted effort to be more civil, if you will.
Let this go “on the Record” [smirks at Henry] as the “First Order of Business”.
As for what I meant concerning the term “conspiracy”…
This word, and its sister term, “conspiracy theorist” are being too often used as tools of both propaganda and avoidance these days. The recent Bush Administration honed the technique of using them to a fine art (and introduced the wide application of the word “terrorist” while they were at it). Now, “conspiracy theorist” seems to be the automatic “answer” to anyone with a reasonable question, no matter how much impact, importance, or openness the subject is supposed to have. (Sometimes the “answer” is even “terrorist”.)
What really gets me about it is, a “conspiracy theorist” is simply someone who aspires to try to formulate, prove or disprove a theory on a possible betrayal of some kind. Thanks to some pretty dedicated spin doctors, that definition is practically thrown out the window, in favour of a more distorted and “sensational” one.
Illustration: The US Government’s “Official Report” on 9/11 is, by definition, a “conspiracy theory”.
Hence, I say the use of this term as a one-sided, derogatory statement is illogical.
At no time did I actually state that I truly believed the Mexican Swine Flu was the result of a “miltary leak”. I only tried to say that such a theory might not be totally far-fetched, given that plenty of similar events have been documented. Now, I realize this kind of statement might ruffle a few feathers if not “supported” by a qualifying link. If that’s what you (or Henry) want in this case, I will get a few for you later, but bear with me for now. (I’m just very tired and sleep deprived – long story, you don’t want to read that as well as this one.)
What I do find “interesting” is, that Mexico did just literally rip itself away from Monsanto’s very exploitive GM contract. Monsanto is not very happy with that, and does have the friends and resources on hand to (wait for it!) create enough propaganda to practically ruin the country. (When I’m looking for the other links, I’ll see if I can also give one that illustrates why this idea might have merit.)
Given the conditions in Mexico, it would be very easy to say some kind of “new” disease came from that and is a potential “pandemic”, given the right set of circumstances. Maybe what happened is not actually anything new, and the situation is just being “strategically augmented” to create enough panic to shut down their key industry, tourism. It might also explain, in part, why people don’t seem to be dropping dead outside of Mexico. (The only suspect death so far in Canada was a 2-year-old, and they haven’t yet determined if it even had that flu, or just “any” flu. 2-year-olds are vulnerable to lots of ordinary flus.) I haven’t checked if there have been deaths attributed to this flu in the US. Maybe someone knows that answer?
As far as the rest of our scrap goes, it’s quite obvious we were each talking about 2 different aspects of this subject that don’t really have any relationship. You were trying to reinforce why it all exists, which I really wasn’t trying to argue with you about.
I was merely trying to point out that our “automatic trust” in these things may have been seriously betrayed by some along the way…
(Yes, I’ll dig up the necessary links on the following scenarios, but, I’ll wait for you to request what you want.)
1) Stannous Flouride has proven benefits for teeth, but has proven accumulative toxic effects for the human body. When it was added to toothpaste, that should have cancelled out the need for flouridated water. (If you read the toothpaste packaging, it tells you either not to allow children below a certain stage of development to swallow it, or simply that the substance is not meant to be ingested, depending on what country you live in and what requirements are put on that.)
Flouride levels in our water were reduced slightly in certain regions, after much noise from some prominent professionals, taking into consideration that not all regions enjoy the same availability of toothpaste or dental care (eg. native Indian reserves, etc.). However, questions keep getting avoided to this day: Why is it still in the water at all when we’re not addressing the toxic effects of ingesting an iron bi-product that have been admitted by all? Why should those living in major centers be ingesting it, when it’s in the toothpaste? Why are the indigenous people supposed to continue to ingest the “full amount” when we could bring them dental care? etc.
2) There has been some controversy over vaccines, due to discoveries made on some questionable contents administered to some Third World countries, by some questionable companies. Eugenicists were involved. Deaths occurred. Some concern spilled over to our side of the world, as similar interests were discovered here as well.
There were also a few vaccines that were “improperly introduced” in North America not long ago. There were recalls. Apparently not in time for a few unfortunate kids. This part of the story is probably the result of human error, and not anything conspiratorial.
3) Genetically modified food hasn’t exactly been proven a trustworthy thing at this point. Nor can we seem to begin to trust its practitioners. In the guise of “helping less fortunate countries”, they move in, introduce their products, which include seeds that only yield one crop (no regermination for the future). The products are also LICENSED and UNDER CONTRACT and have COPYRIGHTS attached to them, effectively locking them into a life of dependency on the one company, with no ability to save seed for the next year, no rights to clean the seeds of their self-destructive element, and no rights to farm beyond what they’re permitted by contract.
The GM products are also more expensive. And the no-escape contracts cause these people to sell their very soul just to satisfy their obligations. And, because of contracts and licensing conditions, many of these people lose their land, and/or their ability to work.
It has also been documented that GM products don’t appear to give any higher yields than non-GM crops.
I hope this clears up where I was coming from, and helps explain that it’s not that didn’t agree with anything you were saying, it’s just that it really had little to do with what I was talking about. I guess the more we each tried to get back to where we intended to go, the further apart we seemed to be. I think Henry can tell you, we had a similar experience some time back.
As I mentioned, I will post a link or two for whatever part of this you want, if you request it.
(That way you get only what you’re interested in, and not stuff you don’t care to sort through.)
_____________________________
@Henry:
I’m sorry if I contributed to upsetting you.
Hopefully, you’ve found the last posts to be a little more intelligent, and can see where our minds were at.
As mentioned above, you probably don’t have to think too far back to remember we had a similar experience which proved to have a similar cause (we were both “right”, just talking about two unrelated principles).
As for conspiracy thoeries, I openly admit to being very “involved” in some.
Those include the 3 we’ve already touched upon (obviously?), as well as 9/11 (probably my “pet project”), and the whole “NWO” conundrum.
I actually regard it as a healthy activity, as long as you don’t have to “stretch” logic or reality too far in order to understand, formulate, or debunk a theory. To me, it’s just applying yourself in order to solve a riddle, and assessing whether your acting on your own thoughts, or those that have been “passed on” to you. If the theory can’t be properly supported, it’s illogical to promote it. That’s what I think separates a “nutjob” from a true “conspiracy theorist”.
April 30th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Very well stated – I concur 100%.
And about the “improperly introduced” vaccines: (this may be tangential to the base topic, but I think it applies)
My mom keeps getting her flu shot every year, but I refuse to do so because I have some pretty solid trust in my own immune system and not so much in the pharm industry. It kills me to see commercials for prescription drugs aimed at consumers directly who then go and demand them from their physicians. True that a good Dr. will take some responsibility at that point, but then take a look at all the commercials from the ambulance chasers doing their thing with the fallout from something that wasn’t all it was cracked up to be and maybe caused more damage. I roll my eyes everytime I see an ad claiming science has “discovered” the secret to weight loss! Didn’t phen/fen teach us anything? Many of the health issues address by the pharm companies are preventable with proper diet//better nutrition and exercise or lifestyle change, but no one talks about that because there isn’t a way to profit from it. Too much stuff is getting pushed through testing without even considering possible long-term effects and the folks who buy it without question are the ones who pay the price, sometimes with their lives.
Just as with “consensus” data, scientific data can be skewed as well, or simply not analyzed correctly and mistaken conclusions drawn, and the prominent number of drug recalls in the last couple decades makes me think that the experts in the industry have been a bit short-sighted lately. Not to mention the fact that there is a great deal of misleading (even if not deliberate) contextual misinformation in the media. Example: the notion that “sugar free” and “fat free” foods = “healthy” foods, when fat isn’t what makes people fat, but starch and ALL of the sugar substitutes contain chemicals that have been directly linked to cancer!
Everything comes down to weighing the risks, and the problem is there isn’t enough understanding that just because the authority gave an “OK” doesn’t mean that there isn’t still risk involved. When I feel like I might be on the more frail side from advanced age I might consider a flu shot, but right now I think what doesn’t kill me will make me stronger. Also since there is no history of cervical cancer n my family (or any cancer that I am aware of – even despite the fact that both grandfathers were pretty heavy smokers), I’m going to wait at least a year maybe two before I consider that new vaccination for the human papilloma virus and see if anything untoward turns up in the wake. On the other hand, my partner’s mother is an ovarian cancer survivor and we just lost his half-sister to astrocytoma, so if we were to have a child I would definitely be considering it for her.
The wisdom in anything is being able to allow all possibilities and then decide for yourself, which would indicate to me all of the people who have met in healthy debate here are more shepherds than sheeple! It is refreshing to see that there are still folks making some use out of the grey matter rattling around in their skulls…
April 30th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
So what is the consensus on the “Swine flu” (even origins aside)? Do you all think there is real cause for alarm/concern or is this a “don’t believe the hype” exaggeration/media fodder panic attack? Anybody got any hard data on risk factor?
April 30th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
@Voxleo:
“So what is the consensus on the âSwine flu…?â
I’m not sure a “consensus” like that would exist so soon in the game.
We needs to see it run its course, and look at the results (propagation, death count, regions affected, etc.)
Of course, it also depends on whether you’re looking for a “total consensus” or a consensus among certain factions of society (medical professionals, general population, radical lesbian muslim vegetarians, etc.) : )
I, personally, don’t actually have a view on this, or any theories brewing in my head that I believe in. (Yeah, I touched on an example of a speculative theory earlier, but it’s not my own, nor do I have any compelling reason to adopt it.)
Until we see how it might, or might not, spread, and what damage may be yet to result, there’s no data out there that would discredit any of what is being reported. As it unfolds, it will either fit with what has been said already, or it won’t. If it doesn’t, that would be when “alternate theories” might be applicable.
Contrary to any impression I may have inadvertently made earlier, I do agree with Matty, in that we should be careful about jumping on any “conspiracy bandwagon” before getting and checking all the available facts. A sound “conspiracy theory” is the product of applied intelligence, but an unfounded one is nothing more than the rantings of a nutcase, and can actually be dangerous to society.
“Use responsibly”
: )
May 1st, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Well this link is to the centre of disease control – the recreation of the spanish flu.
http://72.14.235.132/search?q=cache:lRC7ud750ZoJ:www.cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/1918flupandemic.htm+h1n1+we+recently+reconstructed&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
pretty scary…from other artices I’ve read apparently the recreation was complete around september 2008.
May 2nd, 2009 at 4:07 am
If this new hybrid Flu A-H1N1 is proven to be a bio-warfare agent, could a vaccine create the foundation, perhaps dormantâfor a subsequent binary agent to trigger a worse Pandemic?
Could a flu antidote provide a binary-agent that might trigger a deadly Pandemic?
May 4th, 2009 at 5:19 pm
@ RW – Oh thank you very much. Now I have a very strong desire to stick my head in the sand as that’s a little tidbit of info I rather wish I did not have. I fail to see how this could possiby be a good idea, nor be of any use in combating any virus other than the specific one they have recreated! It is my understanding that the genetic differences are the markers of each different virus ergo what holds true for one is necessarily different for a different strain? Is there really something to be gained from this other than the seemingly inevitable consequence of losing containment of such a thing? Given that nothing is perfect or finite, how can this not bite us in the ass eventually?
(sigh)
I am starting to feel like I am watching a typical slasher flick when the dumb blonde does something spectacularly and predictably DUMB. Why is it that “science” never sees the link to “science-fiction”? Sometimes I really hate that I read…
May 4th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
We will get more unknown deceases. There is a free book that talks about all this. It says that since 2001, we will get more of these besides hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, floods etc. You can request it at http://www.hercolubus.tv. You do not need to join a group or money. The book is a gift for humanity as the last resource to help it through the coming years. The only catch is that you must do the practices in the book to overcome. Any human being regardless of color, race, religion, poor, rich etc., has within what is necessary to overcome what is coming in any place of the planet. Good luck!
May 5th, 2009 at 3:31 am
Has anyone been tracking the spread of swine flu on this website http://www.swine-flu-tracker.com/? It seems every time I check it the swine flu spreads.