UDGNET to AP, DoJ, FBI -
p2pnet.net News:- Yesterday we reported the first criminal action launched by US police agencies against a specific p2p group – the Underground Network.
We believed the comment that formed the bulk of this post originated with the site’s Answer Man. However, we’ve just learned it was a straight lift from an Underground Network forum post.
We’ve removed it from here, although it’s still available under comments here. If you read it, bear in mind that it wasn’t posted by Answer Man but is, rather, from the UDGNET forums.
We’ve replaced it with this which includes direct input from from Underground Network’s GuidoZ following conversations with p2pnet.
Underground Network was unfairly targetted, but there definitely is cyber crime going on and it definitely does need to be dealt with.
So do actions such as the DoJ’s Gridlock help? Not according to a Sacramento intellectual property lawyer. See what he has to say here.
In the meanwhile, we were accused of deleting a post or posts during this debate. GuidoZ and I have sorted it out. It was an honest mistake (not p2pnet’s : ) so everything’s cool on that end as well.
There’s even a chuckle in it —–
“You are free (and even encouraged) to delete the posts that accuse you of deleting posts,” says GudioZ, adding “Talk about irony. lol .”
Done. heh. If you can’t laugh., you’re as good as dead.
For future reference, as we say in the comments dialogue box, “We don’t monitor Readers’ Writes, although we look at them from time to time and sometimes post them in, or as, stories. But we delete posts we come across that are obscene, or which denigrate gender or religion.”
For now, we wish the people at UDGNET all the best and hope this doesn’t drag on. No one (except those looking for free PR) needs this.
Jon Newton – p2pnet
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Updated @ 7:33 am, Pacific, August 29.
August 27th, 2004 at 12:13 am
“an organisation of about 7,000 users”
Um, I guess they are looking at the numbers from a few years ago – kinda like the US-fake terrorist alert status based on three year old data. lol Oh and that’s spelled ‘organization’ with a z.
…..and I really wish they would learn the difference between an Operator and a Hubowner…. They took the pc’s of 5 ‘Hubowners’ not 5 ‘Operators’…. though they had keys in hubs other than their own, and in those other hubs they would be classified ‘Operators’ aka OP’s.
I guess we could tell the FBI, AP and others to RTFM like we would a user lol….. If they would monitor their inbound traffic they would see the data they downloaded did not come from the hubs they visited but the users who made the decision to share purportedly illegal files…. so sue the offending users (40,000 users is closer to the real number of udgnet users.. but that’s growing every day so I could be off…. and not all of them are going to have purported violations in their shares either…)… and leave the ‘chat server hosts with file transfer capabilities’ (hubowners) alone.
August 27th, 2004 at 12:49 am
Yes with the estimated (50) hubs i would esitmate around 40,000 users alone frequent the Hubs. However what the FBI is refering to is Forum Members. They seem to have this idea stuck in there head that on the forums, is where all this illegal activity happens, but we actually trade it into the hubs. They are in for a world of hurt, when they find out this to be untrue. So far, i have stated before, but we don’t have control over 40,000 users to monitor who shares copyrighted materials, as well as to verify the authenticity of those files. While we are a community, we do out best to make it clear as with any file sharing program, that sharing of copyrighted material, is soley responsible by the user sharing the questioned material. We do hope in essence that soon enough the FBI will realize there, “investigators” who think they RTFM did instead skim, and then assumed more then anything. And we all know what happens when someone assumes, and is wrong at there assumptions. In other words, it makes them look like a complete ass of themselves.
August 27th, 2004 at 4:18 am
lol referring to the same people who believe Bit Torrent scans your hard drive for files to share. *rolls eyes*
Sorry you guys got nailed for all of this. Saw the CNN peice on the news up here and the over simplification of what was occuring and the grand statements and how “evil” this network was. Definitely going to be in for a surprise when they don’t find the 40TB of movies and other copyrighted material on those computers.
August 27th, 2004 at 4:41 am
People need to start using anonymous networks like Mute and Ant. They work.
find out about mute here:
http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/
download the MFC version. it was just updated
find out about Ant here:
http://www.myjavaserver.com/~gwren/home.jsp?page=custom&xmlName=ants
and here too
http://antsp2p.sourceforge.net/
August 27th, 2004 at 5:55 am
no such thing as “anonymous” ALWAYS a way to find out who you are. Time to stop sharing if you don’t like the potential reprocussions of sharing copyrighted material or write to your politicians. Time to give them the right facts rather than let they and them spew forth bullshit.
Personally I’m sick of being labeled a criminal – criminals hide and sneak around, I haven’t done anything wrong, I’ll continue to do what I do. When they come knocking on my door I’m fighting back. That’s one of the major problems with all of this NOT ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL has fought them in court – everyone is rolling over, forking over the cash and they lie to the media and the public and point to all those who have settled out of court after being bullied – they call us pirates, thieves, criminals. They quote their own one-sided studies, they try to dismiss the rest, they ignore the rights of the artists they sign (ie:not paying royalties to artists or CRIAA opposing SOCANS request for a new tariff) yet say they are concerned we are stealing from the very artists they have signed. They pollute our childrens minds with lies in school, they ram adverts about the evils of file sharing at the movie theatres … geez people. Time to take a stand don’t you think?
August 27th, 2004 at 6:06 am
Perfectly well said, and in any arangement, believe me, if we can we will make a stand here and now. If at the least for our fellow collegues, but also for those who have put forth effort and time to both this network that was raided, and will still continue to run, as well as to any other networks out there, that may be the next target, all the way down the road to the developer of the original protocols. As long as we are capable of handling this by all means we will fight. The only reason we might not, would be if all charges were lifted, and things were returned to normal as if they never happened. But even then we may continue. Only time will tell regarding this, and im sure this will be covered as time goes on.
August 27th, 2004 at 6:13 am
Its quite interesting to hear about all of this considering the artists themselves commonly make millions of dollars off of their work. Is it not the artists themselves that fly their own Private Leer Jets? Own Private Gold Courses or Luxurious 10 bedroom Homes? And Drive THE latest & greatest & fastest Cars? I Admit there are artists out there that struggle to sell theyre 2nd or 3rd album..But they are not the ones that put up a stink because sumone may have sampled their music online (say Ebay or Yahoo Music.) and then go buy their Albums.
Same goes for the Move industry. How many of these people in this “Underground Network” DONT go to their favorite movie theater? Pardon me Mr.Ashcroft? You say we dont spend our money that we Work Very hard and Diligently for? We dont spend 6-10$’s ever time we go to the movie theater to support out favorite movie’s??? Were is the reasoning behind all of This?
I Must admit…..Movie and Music Piracy is a VERY touchy issue that Nobody in pollitics really WANTS to touch…you cant appeal to both sides, So i think a Change in Governement Policy May be needed….Or we may all see a mass Exodus to Canada
August 27th, 2004 at 11:22 am
they got 7000 from the udgnet forums. In actuality there are a few hundred. The retards don’t realize taht when a forum says “members” it means all the people that have joined the forums…..f u c k i n tards
August 27th, 2004 at 5:46 pm
Did anyone actually read the search warrant affidavit? Pg. 13: “The following represents an average number of terabytes of files being shared by THE MEMBERS OF THE IDENTIFIED HUBS” (emphasis added)…
Page 18, what they’re looking for… It’s not “40TB of movies and other copyrighted material on those computers.” They’re after emails, log files, etc.
Also, the charge wasn’t direct (c) infringement, as I read it, but “conspiracy to commit.” E.g., the hub owner + two people swapping files illegally; the hub owner made an affirmative step towards that activity by running the hub (the prosecution will argue).
August 27th, 2004 at 6:05 pm
Could you get in touch with me please?
Thanks – jon[at]p2pnet[dot]net
August 27th, 2004 at 6:12 pm
chit im not registered and have to post as anon.I agree with fighting back,The feds or any local or state cop,that wants to execute a warrant and confiscate any thing of mine is in for one hell of a battle my
ak-47’s and ar15 are loaded and im ready to rock n’ roll on em.fuck the riaa,mpaa and who ever fuckkin else and oh yea doj fuck off,you to ascrotch
August 27th, 2004 at 7:45 pm
In that case, they should go after Microsoft, the telephone or cable company that provided the connection, the computer manufacturer, the possible programmers that created the compression program, the manufacturers of the camera used to capture the video (if illegally recorded this way), the power company for supplying the electricity used to run these machines, the landlords who rent out space for these computers to sit in and finally Al Gore for inventing the internet.
At first sight it may seem ridiculous, but the DOJ’s and FBI’s thought process can/should lead to this.
August 27th, 2004 at 9:57 pm
Hello all, GuidoZ here from Udgnet.
Jon has been most cooperative in talking with us/me and resolving any small differences of opinion. I greatly appreciate it and am glad to be able to continue believing P2PNet is a good place to come and chat. For awhile I was starting to wonder if they were no better than the press. Jon quickly proved they are MUCH better.
You can reach me at “GuidoZ (at) Udgnet (dot) com”, but do understand that we are NOT talking about the case. I will field other questions/comments however (good or bad). Do realize we have become very busy and stressed, so allow time for a response if you’re looking for one. Remember the golden rule too.
Peace. ~G
August 27th, 2004 at 10:14 pm
This has been resolved. The previous poster explained it correctly – since there were two stories going on, it was thought that all posts were being posted on the same story.
The error was on our end, not P2PNets. Many of us are used to a forum setting as opposed to a message board. Add the stress over the last few days to that and mistakes are bound to be made. =) We certainly apologize and give you permission to delete the posts that claimed you delete posts. (lol oh the irony…)
Thanks for the email conversation Jon.
Peace. ~G
August 27th, 2004 at 10:46 pm
Its good that p2pnet and the Underground Network are back on track with each other. There’s enuff going on with the RIAA and the other scum. We dont need to be helping them.
August 28th, 2004 at 3:23 am
lol @ the guy above. I have an AK-47 in the garage (but it’s not loaded, nor have I even found ammo for it since I moved 4 months ago). There is no way in HELL I’m pulling it on any federal officer if they have a legal warrant. (Even if they have an illegal warrant…) =P Same goes for local police. We all know that’s not the way to win anything.
To the original poster, a-friggin-men! It is time to fight. I’ve seen the news when p2p users have been charged/sued, then pay a fine and slowly creep away limping. That’s not the way to do it. If you have done nothing wrong, then FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS. That’s what it’s all about folks. That’s what we’re preparing to do.
The Underground Network will live on. The forums will still be there like they always have. (After all, that’s the only thing available to “join” when you talk about the network.) I’m sure there will still be hubs with our name on them. (Hell, we usually find hubs with our name on them even when we know nothing about them.)
We may not win in the press. Doesn’t matter in the long run – we WILL win in court and that’s where it counts. I’ve read the affidavits that were used to obtain the search warrants. Horrid lies, deception, and misconstrued “facts” as I stated before. I cannot possibly see how it will hold up in court. Of course they had truth in them here and there, but I don’t see how they would of obtained the search warrants without the lies. Pity.
August 28th, 2004 at 3:25 am
It’s a very good thing indeed. =)
August 28th, 2004 at 3:32 am
Aye, there are flaws in the way things went down. Unfortunately, it’s the legal system, not the justice system that we have to deal with. More often then not it seems to be about loopholes and legal mumbo-jumbo that decide cases, instead of facts.
I do agree that if they are thinking along these lines, then the makers of the software and protocol would be just as liable. After all, according to their logic, they had intent, right? Well no, they didn’t. That’s the fundamental problem… neither did we. There was no intent. The Hub Owners didn’t open up their hub, hoping to be able to swap copyrighted material. They wanted to have a chat place THEY took care of and could call home. Unfortunately this is all to commonly overlooked.
~G
August 29th, 2004 at 1:45 pm
Im glad alot of this has been re-aranged and we are under a better understanding to speak more openly now. As an admin of the network who was also question just the same as the “answer man” Guidoz, i must say, that things have been drastically flipped around. If we had ever had the intent to be a place to share copyrighted materials, i think we all would have tried to be a little more anonymous. Not to mention not openly posting on forums regarding day to day lives.
Its stressing to see all of this happening, and i know theres been a lot of recourse in what has happened. But in any case we will be fighting. They targeted a small portion of our network, becuase they knew they couldn’t handle the other 45 hubs, becuase they are not in the united states. We are claimed to have been “severly disrupted” during this whole endeavour becuase they took 5 hubs. And while we are highly upset and stressed at what has happened. We never once stopped the network to be disrupted by this, in fact the network is still in operation, and even after this people are joining together to work harder against what has happened. Maybe this is something that shouldn’t be mentioned, but its true, and the FBI can look into there little scam of sharing copyright materials in our hubs, and see the other 45 hubs are still in operation. Just out of there US jurisdiction.
However as it may be, we will try to keep everyone informed. We sincerley hope, that whatever this may lead to we can win one for the p2p networks in any scene. So as to rely the consequences back to the users who choose to share the illegal materials.
Acid
August 29th, 2004 at 1:52 pm
Yeah G i think we were all starting to wonder, hence why i was fighting to help people understand the principle behind this, and not the fact that we are just like napster, or some other p2p network. Im just glad jon could help to straighten some facts out. I know how heartbreaking it is to see what is written in these warrants, and see these friends and collegues names and addresses, and to turn to the news website and see the same information, but more misunderstood then even the warrant. Just give us some time, and we will settle this, hopefully with a big win for the p2p networks that really don’t do anything wrong. That or god help us all as we return to a communist country, and we all have our fingers chopped off for having ever touched a keyboard.
Acid
August 29th, 2004 at 2:20 pm
Actually, in proper English (Not American, Canadian, etc).
Go ahead, Check a dictionary. I’ll wait.
August 29th, 2004 at 5:12 pm
p2pnet is ok – i think they really do give a shit
August 30th, 2004 at 12:49 am
Yes, they ARE ok and they DO give a shit. =) It’s what I had always felt, however was starting to lose hope. Very happy to have my faith in P2PNet revived.
Unlike the federal government, P2PNet (Jon) and I talked about it like civilized human beings. We were able to solve all the differences of opinion and problems in under an hour, simply through a few emails. =/
~G
August 30th, 2004 at 8:00 pm
Well, as I have YET to receive an e-mail to be able to post in here with my NICK and all, I am stuck with the “AC”.
What is a “hub” anyways. Goto Best Buy and walk into the computer department and ask for a “Hub”. He/She will hand you a box with a device in it, a “Hub”. What is this “Hub” used for you ask him/Her. “A hub is a device that allows multiple access to multiple computers across a network”. If used for this purpose you would also need a “Router”, which will allow DHCP(assigned ip addresses to each computer) and NAT(Network Address Translation)”Hub Redirect list”.
OMG won’t I get arrested for this?
After all a “Hub” in general is just a “dumb piece of hardware”.
SNAFU
(YES that is my nick)