p2pnet news view Freedom | P2P:- Today was Day Two of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) ‘investigation’ into traffic throttling / net neutrality in Canada.

The CIPPIC (Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic) has been following the proceedings on Twitter.

p2pnet will be running each day as it comes, and here’s the latest »»»

1. @caparsons They haven’t provided audio recordings in the past. Transcripts usually appear a couple weeks afterwards.
2. Day 2 has started at the #crtc hearing. Should be hearing from OIC, Zip.ca, CAIP and a panel of three fellows #netneutrality
3. Point one from OIC: Innovation is driven by the openness of the Internet. “Innovation without permission” #netneutrality
4. OIC points out the dichotomy between the ISPs’ evidence in this hearing and the new media hearing. See http://bit.ly/17JmPg #netneutrality
5. OIC #2: Management practices that reduce innovation are bad for the internet.
6. OIC #3: Some traffic management is ok. Need to ditinguish between congestion and application based throttling #netneutrality
7. OIC #4: Need a 3 part test. 1) ITMP further pressing obj. 2) Rationally Connected? 3) Least restrictive way? #netneutrality
8. OIC is finishing up, the chair looks eager to ask questions. #netneutrality
9. CRTC: “What does openness mean to you?” #netneutrality
10. OIC: Openness is an Internet that allows for innovation and communications without permission. #netneutrality
11. CRTC: Nice analytical framework but you have to make a value judgement How to quantify the value judgement for commerce? #netneutrality
12. OIC: No way to introduce pure quantitative means but ways to have fewer value judgements.
13. Comm. Denton is now asking questions. Mr. Glick (Google) is having his experts answer most of the questions. #netneutrality
14. CRTC: You basic concern is that application specific throttling shifts the balance of power from innovators to carriers?
15. OIC: Not really a power relationship… So the answer is yes kind of.
16. CRTC: What about pricing mechanisms? OIC: Have to be careful about discouraging Internet use, think about mobile data plans. #netneutrality
17. OIC: Also a risk of anti-competitive pricing practices so needs to be watched. #netneutrality
18. OIC: There is a “virtuous circle” between innovation and infrastructure development. (what they mean http://bit.ly/a4Wms) #netneutrality
19. CRTC: Do you think we’ll be reviewing traffic management practices on a regular basis?
20. OIC: If you set up clear guidelines for carriers the landscape should clear up nicely. #netneutrality
21. Mr. Denton is finished… Moving to Mr. Katz.
22. Mr. Katz is asking about the market based economy and how building capacity protects shareholders. #netneutrality
23. One of the questions was related to the “telecommunications act policy objectives” they are worth a read (see s 7): http://bit.ly/1JSFvg
24. Katz: Are consumers willing to pay more money to access the Internet?
25. Katz: “If there are ‘less efficient networks’, do you have statistics that show that consumers are willing to pay for it?” #netneutrality
26. OIC: We don’t believe that there will be less efficient networks if they use non application specific techniques. #netneutrality
27. Ms. Molnar is up… Virtuous circle seems to be on her mind. What are the efficiency obligations on application provided? #netneutrality
28. OIC: There is a highly competitive market in applications and efficiency is part of that competition. #netneutrality
29. OIC: Applications that don’t work well, don’t get used. #netneutrality
30. One thing not mentioned is that one of the telecommunication objectives is “h) to respond to user’s requirements” #netneutrality
31. Moving to privacy concerns and the open Internet.
32. CRTC: How does privacy get preserved in the Open Internet? *boggle* #netneutrality
33. OIC: Any open internet innovation is still subject to the law. #netneutrality
34. Might have brought up wrt to the privacy and applications is the newly introduced ECPA http://bit.ly/SksKY #netneutrality
35. CRTC: What are examples of other ways of managing traffic? OIC: See Comcast’s solution. #netneutrality
36. OIC is done, 10 minute break. Next up should be Zip.ca.
37. Comcast’s Solution: When congested->limit heavy users until not congested or not heavy Better description http://bit.ly/IM0sk #netneutrality
38. Zip.ca is up to the table, Rob Hall is sitting alone. #netneutrality
39. Zip: The assumption that there is a private and public internet is inappropriate because we compete head to head. #netneutrality
40. Zip: We’re moving into the download arena. Streaming to set-top boxes. #netneutrality
41. Zip: We are concerned about DPI because it’s part of our competitive advantage. They can snoop on what people are watching. #netneutrality
42. Zip: If you allow ISPs to discriminate it will harm our business because Bittorrent might be a good way to distribute. #netneutrality
43. CRTC: Why aren’t you a VOD service that we regulate under broadcasting? #netneutrality
44. CRTC and Zip are talking about how to balance broadcast and Internet competition and broadcasting regulation. #netneutrality
45. CRTC: How does the cost factor into this? Zip: Right now the bandwidth costs are more expensive than shipping by mail. #netneutrality
46. Denton is up. Pointing out that bandwidth costs are more expensive than mailing the DVD to their customers. #netneutrality
47. Appologies, not CAIP, CISP. I’ll retweet. #netneutrality
48. CISP: If you want privacy you encrypt, if you encrypt you foil DPI, if you foil DPI then you have congestion again. #netneutrality
49. CISP has a fairly technical presentation: Encryption problems, congestion signalling and TCP/IP stacks. #netneutrality
50. CISP: You don’t have to engage in “wild traffic management”. A single packet dropped signals TCP/IP stacks in every major OS. #netneutrality
51. CISP: Incumbant carriers have failed to offer smaller ISPs the opportunity to be part of the solution. The blame is their own #netneutrality
52. CISP’s written: 2009-261 may solve these problems “Proceeding to consider mandating certain wholesale high-speed access” #netneutrality
53. CISP done, the chair is asking questions. (After saying there was a lot of jargon in the documents.)
54. CISP: Stop relying on technologies that look inside the packet. Instead look at multiple packets and traffic patterns. #netneutrality
55. CISP: Currently ILECs are not IP transport networks they are PPPoE networks. #netneutrality
56. Konrad: I don’t understand what you’re talking about explain what you mean. #netneutrality
57. A little concerned that the commission is not aware of the distinction between PPPoE provision and IP switching. #netneutrality
58. CRTC is asking (in french) about the why CISP does not address the privacy concerns of DPI on their customers. #netneutrality
59. CISP in general is saying that encryption solves many of these privacy concerns but also make DPI useless. #netneutrality
60. CISP has not engaged in DPI partly for privacy issues. #netneutrality
61. Denton is reiterating CISPs arguments… And we’re finished until 1:15. We made it the whole morning without Michael Jackson. #netneutrality
62. Still on lunch, but someone is working. Transcripts from day 1 are up: http://tinyurl.com/l6nqf6. Thanks @tamir_i
63. The next presentation is by a panel of three fellows: Jason Roks, Norm Friesen, and Jean-Francois Mezei. #netneutrality
64. Jason Roks is an entrepreneur and technologist. Founded Hotline in the late 90s. #netneutrality
65. Norm Friesen is a Canada Research Chair in E-Learning and develops and studies Web technologies in educational contexts. #netneutrality
66. Jean-Francois Mezei, who was also involved in the CAIP v. Bell Proceeding, is here representing Vaxination Informatique #netneutrality
67. Should be an interesting panel that can provide a comprehensive examination of some of the issues. #netneutrality
68. Doesn’t look like Mr. Friesen or Mr. Roks are here today. #netneutrality
69. Mezei: The ISPs missed the boat throttling youtube and it’s too late does not want P2P to take some of their business. #netneutrality
70. Mezei is out of time and Roks is up. He is doing a thesis on P2P and traffic management apparently. #netneutrality
71. Roks: P2P and torrents are the same as other formats and protocols and there will be more coming. #netneutrality
72. Roks: Blocking, throttling, or shaping is spiteful of emerging technology. It simply stifles innovation. #netneutrality
73. Well we made it until about 1:42 before Michael Jackson made an appearance. #netneutrality
74. Roks: It costs about $65 per subscriber (at my inflated prices) to upgrade the network. about $2/mnth/subscriber for 3 years. #netneutrality
75. Roks: Wait a minute! I’ve already paid for the speed why am I also paying for using the speed?! #netneutrality
76. Roks: There is a difference between peer data and transit data. Transit data goes outside the network, peer data stays inside #netneutrality
77. Roks: One company doesn’t peer, Bell. Everyone else does but Bell refuses to peer. By not peering they’re breaking the rules. #netneutrality
78. Peering is essentially merging networks and sharing routing information the Wikipedia page on it is quite good. http://bit.ly/rSnjc
79. CRTC: I am confused, People say P2P uses a huge amount of bandwidth. (Down and up) How do I reconcile what you’ve said? #netneutrality
80. Mezei: Something else has already come along… The ISPs are looking backwards not forwards. #netneutrality
81. Mezei: P2P early adopters just happened to get noticed. #netneutrality
82. Roks: If the ISPs’ network can’t handle the traffic maybe they should stop adding customers to the same network. #netneutrality
83. Roks: If I have 20 oranges, I don’t sell my customers 40 oranges. #netneutrality
84. Katz and Roks talking about the CCTS. http://bit.ly/JeP2O #netneutrality
85. CRTC: Is there misrepresentation going on wrt to advertised speeds? #netneutrality
86. Mezei: The ISPs were here complaining a year ago about congestion… Now they’re advertising almost 25% more speeds. #netneutrality
87. Mezei: The companies complaining about P2P have a vested interest in seeing P2P fail. Bell has IPTV and Rogers has cable. #netneutrality
88. Roks: I don’t think they should throttle at all, but if they do there needs to be full disclosure. #netneutrality
89. CRTC: What’s the difference between peering and P2P. (?!) #netneutrality
90. CRTC: You brought this up because there are ways that Bell could manage the network better? Roks: Yes. #netneutrality
91. Hearing is finished for the day. Starts up again tomorrow morning at 9am. Hopefully with some more smooth guitar. #netneutrality

CIPPIC net neutrality on Twitter: Day I
CRTC net neutrality hearing: Ful Day I Transcript

Stay tuned.

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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win ~ Mahatma Gandhi

July, 2009

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This entry was posted on Tuesday, July 7th, 2009 at 3:37 pm and is filed under Freedom, P2P. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

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