The truth is that we are what we believe we are [placebo]… If you believe that your IQ is getting lower with age it will get lower… But there is no such rule that is saying so. What is more – you can even increase your IQ with age…

(take your pick…)

“In professing themselves to be wise, they all became FOOLS!”
- W. Shakespeare

“It’s better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt!”
“If you can keep your head, when all about you are losing theirs…”
- Rudyard Kipling

(you get the idea)

I guess with my measly mechanical and software engineering degrees, plural, I thought to encrypted my p2p 8 years ago, so I guess I am in the 23% already and DPI is redundant. (actually its quite higher, because its encrypted, you dont know if its banking info, or Transformers 2.)

but you still never answered any of the questions I posed, you did like any good IT guru would, you threw more hardware at it, resolving nothing…

I still like your articles tho, in so far that only a PhD’ed IT guru could fathom, with all us 3rd graders meandering around and all…

stw

+1

(And other dissenting members of the P2P Proletariat…..)

Uou are undoubtedly correct. Your IQ is far higher than mine. And I am a condescending ….
As I get older, my IQ gets lower and I have less interest in taking out a ruler to measure it’s length.

The list of chest beating self serving qualifications was to answer the comments of one poster that stated that my stats were plucked from he knows not where. So I thought I would answer that there was some basis for my stats.

You accuse me of failing to answer your points.

Sorry – I misunderstood the entire basis for the discussion. I thought the premise was :

ISP’s need to throttle P2P because…..
with the contra being:
Consumers feel that is unfair because they don’t believe the ISP’s ……

What you and the naysayers have not responded to is the technological challenge of squeezing more than a gallon of water into a gallon Jar.

That is physically impossible to do. That is what throttling is about. The fact that DPI is being mooted by the content industries is interesting but a side issue.
The fact that DPI is desired by the IRS/SEC/CIA/FBI/NSA/etc is also interesting but another side issue.
The fact that ISP’s want to deliver VOD etc to you is an irrelevent side issue.

With now 9% of file sharing sitting on port 80 (umm surfer that would be http) DPI is becoming quickly irrelevant – and should be voted against by any organisation purporting to have the voters interests at heart.

Yes the ISP’s are maturing as an industry and want to add “content” products to their network to increase profitability
Yes some of them may not be out of bandwidth or switching capacity, whilst for others it is a daily battle.
Blanket Statement from an IP engineer (self labelled) who also understands the financial aspects of network growth versus P2P (rather well)

Whatever their public comments the reality is that each ISP is a series of regularly congesting bottleneck funnels that lead into other regularly congested bottleneck funnels.
That is merely a fact. Not my opinion, not some ISP’s bullshit about why they have to increase pricing.

They tried the pricing hike. It didn’t work. Users paid and added more leeches to the home network to compensate.

The current hearings in Canada are interesting and being watched avidly by political advisors worldwide.
Surfer, if you want to make a difference. don’t reply here – pop on down and ask to appear. Tell the commission how you feel.
If I was in Canada, I would be camped on the front steps.

Your position as high IQ consumers should be :

1. We don’t mind DPI to determine traffic type, but not traffic content.
2. As 23% of all P2P traffic is encrypted, DPI would seem to be redundant.
3. As P2P is reducing by 6% a year and becoming http DPI would seem to be redundant. (source IPOQUE P2P Traffic Stats)
4. As P2P masquerading as other software e.g. TVU, Skype, MIRO is growing rapidly, there needs to be a P2P caching policy that providers can utilise to minimise the network congestion.
5. All ISP’s should be permitted to install P2P devices on the Torrent and ED2K and VOIP networks to assist in decreasing congestion.
6. All ISP’s should halt all P2P traffic on their outward bound links except through the authorised local P2P cache or VOIP Gateway
7. P2P connections to the local ISP servers should become an unmetered declared service.

There you go folks, if I was in Canada and a Canadian citizen, that’s what I would be presenting to the hearings.

The only iffy one is six – from a future tax perspective I don’t like 6, but it is the most logical direction for the moment for ISP’s to take to prevent the network from collapsing.

Without regulation, no network delivery system can work.
I hate to do this but partially in the words of Al Gore…..

My daddy built the highways and byways……. we just want to put a couple of traffic lights at the intersections so that more cars can move more betterer…… most of the time.

Throttling is like a traffic light on yellow. If the light doesn’t change to red sometimes, the traffic wont flow on the cross direction and then everyone will blow their horns very loudly.

I trust I have now addressed the issues adequately. As I wrote the original article this thread emanated from – I hereby adjudicate that “It is So.”

Oh yeah – Broadband is coming to your phones, the DPI business model that is decided by this commission will be the adopted future business case of the Cell phone czars.

And….. OMMMMMM………… Shhhhh, I’m busy ascending……

The “pipe” costs less to operate after 1-am.

As a bell employee once said, electricity costs less off peak hours (fuck Bell and that employee). But the fact remains…

X-cents savings times 2.5 million subscribers = ?

This is the economics.

Oz has 2 pipes connected under the ocean (last I knew a few years ago). There is a cost savings in the wee hours x X-million oz internet users.

Same with Canada.

If a Canadian or Australian provider decides to choke the pipe for half the day, they’ve made that decision themselves to further aggravate the situation. At that point, the user would not too interested in blaming anyone in the US or any other peering points, unless they’re also throttling (in which case, you have another reason to examine throttling – from a “global effect” perspective).

Personally, I think the peering obstacles would be best addressed by the providers themselves, as they’re the ones that set up their networks and these arrangements. Peering is a provider issue. The only way I can see peering being part of a “throttling” or “net neutrality” argument, would be if a provider is actively discriminating against another providers’ traffic contrary to some agreement they already have. Otherwise, it has very little to do with a provider’s choice to extort or throttle its own customers.

Again this is right. Israel caches their p2p to decrease their reliance on foreigns. However, even Tom’s Email will bounce to the states before it goes to his friend next door in oz. Everything goes through the states. Just like Bell Canada’s traffic.

It could stay within Canada or Oz you know. But it doesn’t.

Tom is not wrong.

I had friend there paying 100+/month to get what we have here (not unlimited).

Keep in mind they only have one or two cables leaving their island that feeds them to the world (or did a couple of years ago). Anyone remember when they lost one of those lines when it was cut? I do.

Also, what Tom said here, “Do I believe that my downloads should fly? They do – for about 4 hours every morning between 1:00 am and 5 am.”. In Oz thats the standard. I used to upload a lot to oz and thats what it was. Speeds sucked till around 1-am t0 7-am, then those two little pipes connecting their island get swamped as oz wakes up to a new day.

So yeah, its a bit different in oz. (or oz tosses the switch to allow traffic on the two gov controlled pipes when rates are cheaper. Its one or the other.)

However, I do like some of what Tom had to say. I don’t have to agree with it all, but some of it I do.

Keep up the good posts Tom.

The business model IS what should be under fire with these throttling arguments.
Judging by some of Tom’s words, I begin to wonder if the business model in Oz is, in fact, a different one than in North America. (i.e. Do they have a *choice* of providers, or a monopoly-or-similar structure to what we have?)

Over here, I don’t often see ITs get so “anti-user” when throttling is being discussed. Yeah, you get some that advocate the practice to various degrees, but even they show they understand the frustration from both sides, and don’t usually try to ultimately blame the user in the end. (That usually comes from the “suits”!)

I think the problem here is Tom is IT for an ISP, not understanding the business model behind the ISP, just the hardware infrastructure of it.

‘My god Jim, I’m a doctor, not a goddamn engineer!’

and fyi Tom, my IQ is incredibly higher than yours, to include all your badges of honor… please note how I ignored your own little ‘fit’ and ‘foot stomping’.

stw

Umm, “I want or else I’ll throw a fit”? That’s the whole damn human race from birth to old age and ISP’s are just as guilty of it as consumers are lol. Still, thanks for all the posts. It’s been entertaining reading and I’m sad to see you go.

Probably a very good idea, since he couldn’t seem to defend his premise without getting more elitist, pompous, and condescending to the others commenters challenging it. Personally, I think the whole display was just sad.

If you read between the curious attempts to belittle the group (displaying his “credentials” as if that somehow had any actual bearing on the main issue), you find nothing encouraging from this self-proclaimed expert and “P2P advocate”…

1) On and on and on again about the technological challenges of network provision, and the plight of the “poor, disadvantaged ISP”, and nothing to justify the broken business agreements. As if the horse is somehow supposed to come after the cart if you just keep saying it does.

I got news for ya, the CUSTOMERS are insisting on being first, as they should have been all along. They are sick and tired of being left out of the equation and paying full price for a service they’re only getting part of.

Maybe Aussies have multiple choices in network providers and can let their money talk – that one I really don’t know about – but, in North America (land of the “whiners”), we have nothing but monopolies (most of which exist because of publicly-funded infrastructures, by the way) who are proving beyond a shadow of a doubt they intend to take full advantage.

If you were ignorant of this fact, Tom, and that’s what’s been driving the majority of your disdain for the NA user, then stand corrected, reevaluate what’s been said, and see if it changes anything you might have wanted to say. (But since you’ve already made it clear you know everything about everything to do with this issue, I would doubt this would be the case.)

2) “No, you cant have security with a net neutral network – just goes against the whole meme.”
“Privacy ? Oh, no, there is no privacy with a net neutral open wiifii network – everyone can just come right on it. That’s what net neutrality is all about.”

Who’s “version” of net neutrality are we talking about?
No security or privacy is possible with net neutrality?!
Nice blanket statements for a subject that has so many wide-open variables.
I’m not even going to glorify this one…

…Whatever, Tom. Thanks for playin’, eh!

I think our agreement to disagree stems from our disparate definitions of ‘net neutrality’.

I consider it plain old data on the packet level, no particular packet should supersede another. whereas you define it dependent on the packet type. VIOP for 911 calls should be prioritized over video streaming. and I can see the reasoning behind that.

my problem is that ISPs wanted to be nothing more than dumb pipes, and then realizing they could increase profits by being a content provider as well is not in fact, being a dumb pipe. This will become a slippery slope in no time at all, once the ISPs have the ability to throttle youtube and hulu in order to prioritize their own indigenous proprietary content. That, in itself, is monopolistic and unfair.

Open minded people should read-on.

I studied for and was granted a PhD in economics for my thesis, “Increasing the GDP by decreasing Telecommunication costs to Small and home based business.”
I run an ed2k server and collect stats.
I havent purchased a CD in over six years.
I havent purchased a DVD in over two years.
I have a cable TV connection but it isnt actually worthwhile keeping. However it is the financial legitimization of my video timeshifting research activities – so until I can find a way to pay for P2P activities – I guess I need to keep cable connected (personal moral belief). I personally download whatever I feel warrants my attention.
I wish I had more bandwidth. (And I’ve been saying that since my first 54 bits per second slip connection in Sep 1983).
I have built more miles of Frame Relay, Fibre and IP network than any of you have ever driven in your lifetimes.
I am pretty sure I have built more Internet Exchanges than most of you have (5) and meetme rooms (18).
I have built, managed and run ISP’s on three continents and 18 countries.
I do not own any shares or options in any Telcos/RBOCS/ISP’s.
I am not consulting to any Telcos or RBOCS/ISP’s (Although I have as recently as 1996.)
I have no beneficial agenda to preach “The Man’s” spiel. No one is paying me to do so.
In fact I’m not even sure what “The Man’s” spiel is. ( I tend to ignore the man – I dont read newspapers and dont watch the news. In my opinion the man’s word is designed to keep the sheep quiet and happy consumers.)

Here are some facts.

Fact 1. I have since June 1994 done more research into P2P traffic than anyone in Australia.
Fact 2. I have presented small snippets of that research on both the perceptric and P2Pnet Blog sites.
Fact 3. That research indicates that by 2011 99% of Internet users will have an active P2P client installed on their connection device of choice.
Fact 4. There are 1.48 billion internet connected PC’s Globally.
Fact 5. There are 1.9 billion internet connected phones Globally.
Fact 6. Big Business (who hires your congressmen/representative through campaign contributions) desire to have all content paid for through metered portals.
Fact 7. I do not believe this is good for the world in-toto. In other words, not having all content pass through a paid for portal is my definition of Net-neutrality.
Fact 8. The internet is based on Packet technology. Packet Technology by its very design, is a “retry if fail to deliver” type of communication.
Fact 9. TCP-IP grew from paralell research projects in France and the USA. It is similar to Frame Relay and fR’s predecessor, X.25.

All of these technologies are “best delivery effort” technologies.
If you have purchased a 5Gb per second TCP-IP DSL connection from an ISP – then unless there is a great big huge ATM switch on your front porch with a bundle of fibres connecting you to the exchange – it is a BEST EFFORTS NO GUARANTEE service.

So, now, we get down to service level guarantees.
There are NO DSL (Packet based) connections with guaranteed Delivery speeds – Anywhere in the world. (Think I’m wrong? Read your contract, SLA, FAQ.)

Overloading the ISP’s routers with high transit ACK requests each TCP-IP packet requres a conversation – something like this “I have sent you a packet – did you get it? – Please Reply. Yep I got the Packet – was the packet you sent 1591 kb long? Yes it was.”
Which means that you the user received that packet and the world is a happy place.
But what happens if the answer comes back – “Shit no – the packet was only 1589 long – please resend. OK – Resending…….”
Multiply that by several million packets getting incorrect ACK’s from the recipient and suddenly eeek – Congestion, mayhem and of course over utilization of the Network.

And why did that happen ?

Well – usually two main reasons boys and girls – and do you know what they are ?
OK – for those in the back rows….. Video Streaming and P2P.

Unfortunately for all of us………. The future is coming.
Whilst all of you non-geeks are whinging and moaning about net-neutrality – Technology has moved on……
And here us Aussies are better off than you guys – 3G and 4G wireless will be delivered via the phone networks.

Already in Australia, 3G HDSPA Broadband speeds are twice that of most DSL connections.

I can access the internet faster through my broadband phone service than I can through either unwired (1.9 Ghz WiFi – 512 kbps) or DSL (512 kbps) so the little USB Telstra stick (21 Mbps – but capped at 5 GB p/mnth) is thrashed daily.

What is coming up in your future….. ?

Well basically, DSL is dead. 4G is coming. Portals are coming and all content shall be paid for on a bit per second basis.
What can you do about it ?

Well the Canadians are a clever bunch – I remember reading somewhwere that when the RBOCS didnt want to set-up internet in remote towns, Canadians co-opted their own wiifi ISP.

Now that would be an interesting P2P Net Neutral thing to do.
Put a 29 DB gain 2.4/5.7 Ghz antennae on your roof and allow the world to talk to your computer and share those files.
What’s that?

Security?

No, you cant have security with a net neutral network – just goes against the whole meme.
Privacy ? Oh, no, there is no privacy with a net neutral open wiifii network – everyone can just come right on it. That’s what net neutrality is all about.

What’s that? You want to know who is looking at the files on your computer? Well yes we can do that. It’s called DPI – becoming quite popular I hear.

Oh you want to encrypt evertyhting …. thats a good idea. What would happen if every file on the network was encrypted at 128 bits and inside a PVC that was also encrypted at 128 bits. Has anyone worked out what the extra traffic load would be on the network ?

BTW – thats on a per packet basis dummy – not the file size…..
And don’t forget to decrypt the header routing information…..

No – I didnt think anyone in here could use a calculator.

It’s been fun guys ‘n gals – but I seriously doubt anyone in this forum has been educated past the “I want or else I’ll throw a fit” level.
(I think that’s first graders……)

Am I right ? I don’t know.
But in the last 30 years my technology picks have usually been on the button.
Management and personality wise – don’t pick me – cant tie my shoelaces.
Technology wise, I’m a guru.

You should listen to Gurus – it’s good for the soul.

I’ll leave you with a Mantra for the next time you have your favourit bitTorrent client throttled…..

Step outside, breathe deeply and slowly.
Say Om Mani Padme Hum…….

See – doesnt that feel better already?
If yes – repeat until a glow envelopes you and you ascend.
If no – shout out loudly F*** You (insert least favourite Bell here), when I win the lottery I am going to build a Global net-neutral WiFi network and you wont be allowed to use it – HA!.

Problem solved.

just because the service is different doesn’t make the following analogy any less bullshit.