p2pnet news view Freedom | P2P:- It’s a wrap for Day Five of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) ‘investigation’ into traffic throttling / net neutrality in Canada.

The CIPPIC (Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic) has been following the proceedings on Twitter.

p2pnet will be running each day as it comes, and here’s the latest »»»

1. Good morning #netneutrality. Today we’re going to hear from Telus, Cybersurf, Cogeco, and Barrett Xplore.
2. Telus should be up first, they are interesting because they did not use DPI when they submitted their submissions. #netneutrality
3. Telus was also the most forthcoming re traffic data. I would link to it, but it seems like the crtc site is suffering #netneutrality
4. Soothing guitar over. Telus is up. #netneutrality
5. Telus: Hello twitter. #netneutrality #crtc
6. Telus: We do not currently employ ITMP, but that does not mean we wouldn’t consider it. #netneutrality
7. Telus: We are going to spend about 900 million in next generation fiber networks and HSPA. #netneutrality
8. Telus: We expect more growth. Think HD-everything. #netneutrality
9. Telus: Canada should be proud of the network we’ve built. According the OECD we still lead the G8. #netneutrality
10. Telus: New regulation to prevent fair discrimination is bad thing. Unlike monopoly era regulation does not shield from risk. #netneutrality
11. Telus: Concern for the “potential for anti competitive behaviour”. Luckily we have rules and can address offending practices #netneutrality
12. Telus: We don’t want regulation that would hinder the ability of ISPs to recover on their enormous investment. #netneutrality
13. Telus: Wireless are very different from wireline, and they need more flexibility. #netneutrality
14. Telus: Some parties have sought to use this hearing to forward their access to wholesale agenda. #netneutrality
15. Telus: ISPs that don’t wish to be ITMPed by upstream would need to invest in their own facilities or contract differently #netneutrality
16. Telus is proposing a 3 step test that is a bit of a remix of the OIC/CDM/EveryoneElse test proposed. #netneutrality
17. Having some technical difficulties with the stream, not in the room today. #netneutrality
18. Konrad and Telus are discussing the pros and cons of an exposte exante approach to complaints. (Definition Incoming) #netneutrality
19. CRTC: I have trouble reconciling that ISPs are not providing a public utility (service publique?) thoughts? #netneutrality
20. Telus: It comes down to competition, that’s why it’s foreborne in the first place. #netneutrality
21. Def: Ex Ante the opposite, a series of rules is created beforehand as to what’s acceptable. #netneutrality
22. Telus: ITMPs that we’ve talked about don’t alter content the concern is how they’re being handled. #netneutrality
23. CRTC: ISn’t the concern they’re being handled at all?! #netneutrality
24. CRTC: Why should the result be different depending on whether there is competition in the market? Isn’t the law the same? #netneutrality
25. Telus: Section 36 is an absolute rule with implicit exceptions. (??) #netneutrality
26. RT @jacobglick: Telus wants to focus on S. 27(2) because it allows discrimination if it is “just”.
27. Telus: Nothing wrong, on it’s face for price discrimination. (Charging a different price for different amounts of bandwidth.) #netneutrality
28. CRTC: Most customers have no interest in ITMPs… What evidence do you have that they’re not interested? #netneutrality
29. Telus: People have interest in the Michael Jackson funeral. (dangit 36 minutes) The people following are insignificant number #netneutrality
30. Telus: But most people don’t really care how things work. #netneutrality
31. CRTC: But people care about privacy… Do you think more would care if that were an issue? #netneutrality
32. Telus: Yep. But a lot of these practice are pretty arcane. #netneutrality
33. Telus: There are existing laws wrt to privacy. CRTC: But you agree that we have to be concerned about privacy #netneutrality
34. Telus: We are concerned when the crtc get involved in a section of law already covered. You end up with battle of the regs. #netneutrality
35. Telus: Things impacting on privacy should be dealt with by the privacy commissioner. #netneutrality
36. Telus: I hope we would put the boots to someone who came up with an ITMP that was privacy invading. #netneutrality
37. Katz: Just want to confirm that growth on the private services side does not impact the public side. #netneutrality
38. Telus: I would say that absolutely it does. #netneutrality
39. Telus: Part of the network is used for internet part is used for broadcasting. #netneutrality
40. Katz was definitely not expecting that answer. He sounds a little rattled. #netneutrality
41. Katz: Let’s assume capacity is fixed for 6 month, does growth of managed IP affect the other side? #netneutrality
42. Telus: The way that the network is set up is that we don’t disadvatage the public Internet. #netneutrality
43. @Shampoo_ That’s the translation in the statutes for “public utility”. She was commenting on the fact that it’s also a public service.
44. Katz and Telus are talking about managed services, (IPTV VoIP etc.) and how investment in one affects the other. #netneutrality
45. Katz: Odlyzko said that technology is evolving fast enough to keep up with growth. Sound good? Telus: Yes that’s fair #netneutrality
46. @gregobr The feed is up and down for some folks, might explain numbers.
47. Telus: There is unmeasurable competition at “the edge” no regulator could make it better. #netneutrality
48. Katz: Can you lay out what the obstacles are if you were asked to separate wholesale customer from retail customers.
49. Telus: ….. …. Konrad: Not going to get to it now, move along. #netneutrality
50. Denton: Youve been guilty of telling the truth in public. #netneutrality
51. Denton: Would you say there is no price that could be set that would make wholesale reasonable. #netneutrality
52. Telus: We have to move away from an arbitrage thing to an environment where rates are reflective of commercial circumstanced #netneutrality
53. Telus: Yes we’re talking about cutting edge technologies that increase capacity, ie in wireless HSPA or LTE. #netneutralityabout 5 hours ago from TweetDeck
54. Denton: Many parties have expressed concerns for app-specific measures. Do you see app-specific measure as legitimate? #netneutrality
55. Telus: Yes, we reserve the right to do that. So long as they don’t result in anticompetitive self dealing. #netneutrality
56. Denton: Interpretation of 36, (from ‘93) Isn’t is fair to say that 36 is about common carriers? #netneutrality
57. Telus: I agree. #netneutrality
58. Konrad: You watered down the OIC test, why was that necessary. #netneutrality
59. Telus: When you use terms like least restrictive, very subjective. #netneutrality
60. Konrad: We want to be as objective as possible. #netneutrality
61. Telus: Exactly, comparing details is inappropriate, if you make it “reasonable” it works much better. #netneutrality
62. Telus: We find the least restrictive standard very objectionable. #netneutrality
63. And we’re on a 5 minute break, enjoy the smooth guitar works of #netneutrality
64. Next up should be Cybersurf. Cybersurf’s core position during written submissions was that VoIP must be left alone. #netneutrality
65. Cybersurf is not actually presenting… Looks like Cogeco Cable is up. #netneutrality
66. Cogeco: We do not produce or aggregate content. We are a telecomm common carrier. #netneutrality
67. Cog: Competition is such that we can’t not upgrade or risk losing customers. #netneutrality
68. Cog: Competition drove us to implement ITMPs. Impossible to run DOCSIS without contraining the upstream side. #netneutrality
69. DOCSIS: Data Over Cable Service Interface Specification… It’s the protocol used by cable modems and service providers. #netneutrality
70. Cog: We ONLY impact the upstream for P2P applications and never the downstream. #netneutrality
71. Cog: We inspect the header and payload (!!) to the minimum extent possible. #netneutrality
72. Cog: We plan to rely on “technical management tools” to protect our network. #netneutrality
73. Cog: Talk about the objectives, assumptions and questions now. #netneutrality
74. Cogeco is providing a list of things that ITMPs cannot do. Including blocking and editorial control. #netneutrality
75. Cog: Several alarmists have brought up privacy concerns. We have no idea on the identity of users being shaped. #netneutrality
76. Cog: Cable network is a shared infrastructure. No virtual paths. (Essentially we’re not DSL and users impact eachother) #netneutrality
77. Cog: We have to treat wholesale and retail or it doesn’t work. #netneutrality
78. Cog: We plan to include a dedicated section on ITM practices in our terms of use now. #netneutrality
79. TPIA: The wholesale version of cable networks. #netneutrality
80. Cogeco finished… Konrad: You should have written our decision, much more concise than our version. #netneutrality
81. Konrad: Surely if you affect the upstream side it affects a downstream somewhere else. #netneutrality
82. Cogeco: Used to have an impact on P2P, but no more taken based. #netneutrality
83. Cogeco: Only affect downstream if one customer is downloading from another. #netneutrality
84. Konrad: You only do it to all P2P or distinguish between P2Ps? Cogeco: File transfer P2P only. #netneutrality
85. Konrad: We’ve heard the moment you’re application specific you are discriminatory. Discuss. #netneutrality
86. Cogeco: Has to be some distinctions drawn at some point. Let’s not kid ourselves P2P application hoard capacity. #netneutrality
87. Konrad: You apply this “slow down” on a 24/7 basis. Cog: correct #netneutrality
88. Konrad: Why not be more narrow? Cog: If we’re providing this tool, why provide any opportunity to bypass this tool? #netneutrality
89. Cog: Unless overriding concern measure is an issue within the 4 corners of the act in light of policy directive. No issue. #netneutrality
90. Konrad: We might actually hear that argument is there is ever a complaint. #netneutrality
91. Denton: Let’s talk economics. Why don’t you think they’re enough? #netneutrality
92. Cogeco: 1) Not much data. 2) Not convinced that usage billing will cover all contingencies or new issues. #netneutrality
93. Cogeco: Whole discussion revolves around whats reasonable for people investing huge amounts of money and frontline decisions. #netneutrality
94. Denton: You would suggest our previous guidance is enough. Cog: guidelines is what this whole proceeding is about. #netneutrality
95. Denton: Again why 24/7 and not when congestion occurs. #netneutrality
96. Cog: If the management tool is not illegal, why should we provide further complexities and uncertainties? #netneutrality
97. Denton: Data is retained for a “very short period”, how long is “very short”? #netneutrality
98. Cog: No more than 30days, just kept for engineering purposes. What’s on our network etc. #netneutrality
99. Denton: Telus was using application agnostic (err they were?), how does that strike you? #netneutrality
100. Katz: Nothing. Molnar: You say no reason to extend disclosure, we’ve gotten no complaints. Discuss. #netneutrality
101. Cog: Perfectly in order for TPIA customers to say we have the same as Cogeco. #netneutrality
102. Cog: Suppliers are very much aware of the tools that we use. No uncertainty about what the tools do. #netneutrality
103. Molnar: Why is advanced notice not appropriate? #netneutrality
104. Cogeco: Our measure don’t impact wholesalers any differently. Were infact no complaints at all or any inquiries. #netneutrality
105. Molnar: Unreasonable to provide TPIA customers notice when nature of traffic is changed due to ITMPs? #netneutrality
106. 5 minute break. Seems to have been upgrade to some sort of flute. #netneutrality
107. Cog: We could forward the communication between us and our customers to the TPIA customers. #netneutrality
108. Up next is Barrett Xplore Inc. they focus on remote location highspeed Internet. Combination of wireless and satellite #netneutrality
109. Barrett Xplore Inc. up. We’ll be as brief as possible, it is Friday morning after all. Almost weekend time. #netneutrality
110. BX: Invested about 140million of private capital. #netneutrality
111. BX: Some people have suggested we can spend more money to expand capacity to accommodate bandwidth hogging applications. #netneutrality
112. BX: If we did that we would quickly be in financial distress. #netneutrality
113. BX: Extremely different to expand fixed wireless or satellite facilities. Backhaul capability is stretched. #netneutrality
114. BX: Satellites are hard to upgrade while they’re in space. #netneutrality
115. BX: Threatening our existence threatening the goal of having broadband in rural and remote communities. #netneutrality
116. BX: We can’t cut off hundreds or thousands of our customers to allow a couple user’s bandwidth hogs. #netneutrality
117. BX: Each ISP should provide notice to it’s customers. We have a website regarding limitations. #netneutrality
118. BX: TMPs do not raise privacy concerns. #netneutrality
119. BX: Analytical framework: 1) Require a complaint that shows discrimination 2)then the ISP should have to defend the practice. #netneutrality
120. BX down, question time. BX: We can’t reach you if you’re under a rock. #netneutrality
121. Konrad: How do you price it. BX: equipment, service fee, and installation. #netneutrality
122. Konrad: Could you cover all of Canada? BX: For the most part yes. #netneutrality
123. Konrad: What’s different about a satellite? BX: Key difference is number of customers impacted. Many more per beam. #netneutrality
124. Molnar: Where does BX control the ITMPs? BX: well actually nowhere. Satellite does their own. we have nothing on wireless #netneutrality
125. Molnar: Unique or better satellite ITMPs? BX: I’m not a satellite engineer, sorry. #netneutrality
126. Molnar: What extent can you influence TMPs? BX: We have some influence, but it’s their technology. #netneutrality

Stay tuned.

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July, 2009

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This entry was posted on Friday, July 10th, 2009 at 4:29 pm and is filed under P2P. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

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