p2pnet news view Freedom | P2P:- It’s the end of Day Four of the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) ‘investigation’ into traffic throttling / net neutrality in Canada..

The CIPPIC (Canadian Internet Policy and Public Interest Clinic) has been following the proceedings on Twitter.

p2pnet will be running each day as it comes, and here’s the latest »»»

1. Good morning! Should be getting started up shortly. Up today: CAIP, CDM (CIPPIC), Execulink, Primus #netneutrality
2. Up first is CAIP. You may remember them from such hearings as CAIP v. Bell. See: http://bit.ly/S5eXY #netneutrality
3. This should be a very interesting morning given the commission’s epiphany yesterday http://bit.ly/Ys8Ii #netneutrality
4. CAIP: Dominant carrier have an overwhelming share of the market. 95.5% of residential subscribers. #netneutrality
5. CAIP: One way to bring hope for balance is to ensure there is a variety of providers and service offerings. #netneutrality
6. CAIP It should be up to the customer to determine the extent to which they want to have their services influenced by ITMP. #netneutrality
7. CAIP: In the interest in promoted competition, ITMPs should not be applied to wholesale services. #netneutrality
8. CAIP: If network congestion is going to be used to develop policy for ITMPs then a standard definition needs to be developed. #netneutrality
9. Financial Post live blog of CRTC hearing is available at http://bit.ly/498bhJ. #netneutrality
10. CAIP: Full disclosure regarding ITMPs should be given so that customers can make choices. #netneutrality
11. CAIP: No reason that analysis of personal information needs to be employed for traffic management. #netneutrality
12. CAIP: There is a theoretical possibility that some ITMPs could be used for purely commercial purposes. #netneutrality
13. CAIP: However PIPEDA still applies to that information. #netneutrality
14. CAIP: In order to maintain technological neutrality the same rules should apply to all carriers… Wireless or wired. #netneutrality
15. @DeathwishDuck C-47 is certainly troubling in some ways… The commission doesn’t like hearing about possibilities though.
16. CAIP: ITMPs should not apply to wholesale, however if there is choice and disclosure ITMPs at the user level may be alright. #netneutrality
17. CAIP is finished, questions up. #netneutrality
18. Konrad: You don’t actually mean dominant do you? CAIP: Yes we do, it’s a duopoly. #netneutrality
19. CAIP: We don’t think that we would be here at all but for the non-competitive nature of the market. #netneutrality
20. Sorry. ITMP: Internet Traffic Management Practice. (Invasive Traffic …) of which DPI and throttling is one. #netneutrality
21. Konrad: We are here because there *is* congestion, why do you say we shouldn’t focus on congestion? #netneutrality
22. CAIP: It’s not really about congestion it is about competition. #netneutrality
23. Konrad: If congestion is the wrong lens what is the correct lens? #netneutrality
24. CAIP says that the retail ISPs should be able to manage their traffic the way that way want. #netneutrality
25. Katz: How do your customers differentiate their services from the incumbent carriers? #netneutrality
26. CAIP: Non-internet services, we are finding other way on Internet services. Local services, contribute to the community. #netneutrality
27. CAIP: We can’t guarantee that we can differentiate because of the ITMPs of the upstream provider. #netneutrality
28. Katz: Evidence filed that markets work better elsewhere for number of reasons.1 is no difference between wholesale and retail #netneutrality
29. They keep talking about “reselling”. ISPs here are not resellers like they are in the UK. #netneutrality
30. CAIP: No controversy in the UK because you have proper competition structure out there, not so here. #netneutrality
31. Katz: Bell competes with Videotron in Quebec and they offer distinguishable services. The market is taking care of itself. #netneutrality
32. CAIP: There is a lot of evidence in Quebec of duopolistic practices. #netneutrality
33. Katz: Videotron has made a business decision… That’s the market working. #netneutrality
34. CAIP: I agree with you at the retail level. Don’t force all of the CAIP members at the wholesale level. #netneutrality
35. Katz: Few minutes regarding GAS and HSA, one has a QoS gaurantee one does not. #netneutrality
36. CAIP: Bell could provide 2kbps service and still meet the tariff. That doesn’t mean the tariff was intended that way. #netneutrality
37. CAIP: Still problems with HSA. HSA not impeded by ITMPs *yet* #netneutrality
38. Katz: I will have to take this up with Bell. #netneutrality
39. Denton: Last couple days been told that congestion is the problem. You say no evidence wholesale is a congestion problem. #netneutrality
40. Denton: You said that a competitive market structure will take care of the congestion problem?
41. CAIP: Monopolies and duopolies constrain capacity because you don’t have to price at marginal costs. #netneutrality
42. Denton: Is your proposition if retailers were able to buy from wholesalers without ITMPs you would be able to differentiate? #netneutrality
43. CAIP: Yes it’s impossible to look at these issues in isolation, competition is directly related. #netneutrality
44. Denton: Where should ITMPs lie? At the retail level? CAIP: Yes. #netneutrality
45. Denton: Enough competition at retail level? CAIP: (essentially yes) #netneutrality
46. CAIP’s fundamental argument is that a competitive marketplace will take care of both the ITMP issue and congestion issue. #netneutrality
47. Molnar: With the wholesale service available today could you guarantee that you would not impact the wholesaler? #netneutrality
48. CAIP: Our understanding is that the ITMP are implemented across the whole network regardless of if there is an actual problem #netneutrality
49. CAIP: The market share is so small that we find it hard to believe and seen no evidence we could be part of the problem. #netneutrality
50. Molnar: Bit concerned that we would use application differentiation as a means of competitive differentiation. @netneutrality
51. CAIP: We already have parental controls which is a similar type feature. #netneutrality
52. Molnar: I see those as two very different things. #netneutrality
53. Molnar is finished, LaMarre is up, expect some privacy questions. #netneutrality
54. LaM: Concerned about your approach to privacy. You’re asking us to ignore 7(i) (telecommunication act)? #netneutrality
55. CAIP: No! We’re saying that we don’t need another rule because there is already a rule to deal with this. #netneutrality
56. Konrad: You say ITMPs applied to you later. They may say that they tried their Bell consumers and it didn’t work. #netneutrality
57. CAIP: We don’t think that technologically that we could impact the Bell network, if we’re wrong then we’re too small. #netneutrality
58. CAIP: Ask the companies, we have been shown no evidence. #netneutrality
59. CAIP is finished, time for 5 minutes of smooth guitar. #netneutrality
60. Up next is CDM (CIPPIC), we have three experts appearing with us Dr. David Reed, Dr. Andrew Odlyzko, and William St. Arnault. #netneutrality
61. Dr. Reed was heavily involved in the development of TCP/IP, and was the designer of UDP. #netneutrality
62. Dr. Odlyzko is a Professor UMinn and known for debunking of the myth of Internet traffic doubling every three month. #netneutrality
63. St. Arnault is the CRO for CANARIE. He has been integral in the implementation of Canada’s next generation optical Internet #netneutrality
64. @andromedaops They were very secretive about their numbers, most were #’d out and submitted only to the commission. #netneutrality
65. CIPPIC/CDM is up, break over. #netneutrality
66. David Fewer is introducing the experts. #netneutrality
67. Steve Anderson (@steveinfos) of SaveOurNet.ca fame is going to introduce the issues and make a brief presentation. #netneutralityabout 4 hours ago from web
68. SA: It is important to note this is an issue with some ISPs and partners on one side and the rest of Canada on the other. #netneutrality
69. SA: Allowing ISPs to determine access conditions for apps it will have unintended consequences for free speech/innovation #netneutrality
70. SA is, for the first time I think, pointing out the huge (11000 responses) public response to the online consultation. #netneutrality
71. CDM: ISPs do not build their networks as an engineering decision. If so Dr. Reed would be someone else’s witness, not mine. #netneutrality.
72. CDM: We may talk about an ISP’s facility but it’s Canada’s Internet. #netneutrality
73. For clarity CIPPIC is here on behalf of CDM… CDM has a shorter acronym.
74. CDM: Provisioning is the appropriate way to meet shortages in supply. Not by squelching demand. #netneutrality
75. CDM: ITMPs are not appropriate to maintain the day to day integrity of the network. But maybe for Obama or Mother’s day. #netneutrality
76. CDM: P2P specific traffic management is unacceptable and the commission needs a principled framework. #netneutrality
77. CDM: If ISPs are encouraged by the commission to innovate they will develop solutions better than the current situation. #netneutality
78. CDM: Application specific throttling is discriminatory. It puts them at a competitive disadvantage. #netneutrality
79. CDM: Application specific throttling is a violation of the telecommunications act. #netneutrality
80. CDM is laying out a test that is similar to the Oakes test and reminds us of the OIC test earlier this week. #netneutrality
81. CDM: Penalizing an entire application platform is not a rational response to the practices of a small number of its users. #netneutrality
82. CDM: The framework is flexible. Allows ISPs to choose from a range of options only requiring these be tailored to the act. #netneutrality
83. CDM is finished, question time. #netneutrality
84. Konrad is trying to sort out the ISPs ability to impact the wholesaler’s network. #netneutrality
85. St. Arnault: When there is a dedicated pipe, no way to propagate. Without technical details unable to say for certain. #netneutrality
86. Reed: Much simpler remedy is to talk to the retailer and say “Hey you’re using more than you signed a contract for.” #netneutrality
87. Konrad: You said don’t throttle applications, that it has an asymmetrical impact. Are you offside using app based throttling? #netneutrality
88. CDM: Yes you are offside. it will never be sufficiently tailor to the problem. #netneutrality
89. @TSIGabe It seems the commission is very confused by that.
90. Reed to same question: We are talking about internet service not communication service. #netneutrality
91. Reed: Internet service is about delivering all packets all the time. It’s fundamental to the Internet design. (he would know) #netneutrality
92. Konrad: I don’t want to make a finding that all application based throttling is offside before a complaint. #netneutrality
93. CDM: If you put the test out and make it clear then it’s clear that application-based throttling would be offside. #netneutrality
94. Denton is restating OIC’s test and noting that it’s remarkably similar to the test CDM proposed. #netneutrality
95. Denton: Can you comment on the ruling and procedures of the IETF and their applicablity here. #netneutrality
96. Reed: The IETF is remarkably good at vetting technical solutions. Allows for a broad set of inputs. #netneutrality
97. Reed: All the parties involved in engineering the Internet participate in the process. Sort of like the legal process here. #netneutrality
98. St. Arnault: IETF has an important role. In fact meeting right now about NN. But real sticky issues are business issues. #netneutrality
99. Denton: Comments regarding competition and lack of compacity. #netneutrality
100. Odlyzko: The rate of traffic growth is comparable to the rate of improvement of technology. #netneutrality
101. Odlyzko: Congestion is always a function of supply and demand. #netneutrality
102. Odlyzko: I study rate of transit traffic growth, the rate of that growth is declining. #netneutrality
103. Odlyzko: That level of growth can be met with normal investment in technology that is already available. #netneutrality
104. Denton: If you had a message to leave us with, what would it be? #netneutrality
105. Reed: Don’t react to the crisis of the moment, be forward looking. Help sort out the technical issues. #netneutrality
106. Reed: Go slow and think forward. #netneutrality
107. Odlyzko: Study over time, there is not a horde of people waiting to destroy the networks. Make informed decision. #netneutrality
108. St. Arnault: Don’t focus on P2P, P2P traffic volume has fallen. Don’t fight yesterday’s war. #netneutrality
109. St. Arnault: Early adopters are going to be the big contributors, encourage that development and innovation. #netneutrality
110. Katz: Universities have a reputation as high bandwidth users. What are they doing? #netneutrality
111. Odlyzko: UMinn dorms are capacity controlled. The problem with the discourse is P2P is incorrectly identified with piracy. #netneutrality
112. That’s it for CDM. They were very brief with their questions this time around. #netneutrality
113. Useful, thoughtful and brief.
114. Execulink is up next for what’s essentially the home stretch of 10 ISPs. (with a consumer group tucked in) #netneutrality
115. I think we’re ready to go again, Konrad just came out of the back and clapped his hands three times. #netneutrality
116. Execulink is interesting because they are both a wholesaler and a customer, similar to MTS. Should be a neat presentation. #netneutrality
117. EL: Privacy, short answer is no. ITMPs make it easier but ISPs have always been able to unethically eavesdrop. #netneutrality
118. EL: 4 categories of ITMPs. Technical, economic, capacity, contractual. #netneutrality
119. EL: It is preferable to use non-technical solutions before technical ones. #netneutrality
120. EL: ISPs should clearly disclose the limitations of their offering but not necessarily the technical details. #netneutrality
121. EL: ISPs combine GAS with other inputs to create their own unique products. GAS is not a resale product. (There you go TSI*) #netneutrality
122. EL: Managing a network can be made impossible when the wholesaler (and competitor) technically modifies traffic. #netneutrality
123. EL: Market forces can only be relied upon if competitors are able to differentiate their services. ITMPs can hinder that. #netneutrality
124. Execulink’s presentation is finished, question time. #netneutrality
125. Konrad is asking again about wholesale customers’ ability to impact the the wholesale provider. #netneutrality
126. EL: They can not create consumption problem. It’s capped and cannot go any faster or any more volume. #netneutrality
127. EL: Cannot cause a problem if we deliver what we promise to deliver them. #netneutrality
128. Konrad: Who puts those limits in? EL: The wholesale provider. (Bell) #netneutrality
129. RT @SaveOurNet: SaveOurNet.ca coordinator Steve Anderson who just presented at the CRTC in an online live discussion http://bit.ly/XyFiu
130. EL: If they are using ITMPs on wholesale traffic it means they wont deliver what they promised to deliver. (ouch!) #netneutrality
131. EL: We have Sandvine equipment, we use them in case of an attack but not to interfere with traffic. #netneutrality
132. EL: Telecommunication providers can have access to information about their consumers but it’s illegal. #netneutrality
133. Molnar: You couldn’t control content in telephone, why is it alright in telephone? #netneutrality
134. EL: Customer requested control is fine. We restrict long distance calls if asked for, should be the same for the internet. #netneutrality
135. Molnar: Roks suggested disclosing the traditional speed, but also the throttled speed. #netneutrality
136. EL: It’s very expensive to guarantee speeds, always have to say “up to”. #netneutrality
137. Denton: You mentioned investment (based on depreciation rate) was able to keep up with traffic increases. #netneutrality
138. EL: Yes we can do that.
139. EL is finished… Lunch break resuming at 1:30. Time for some soft guitar. #netneutrality
140. Very interesting that EL can keep up with traffic growth by simply reinvesting depreciation. #netneutrality
141. Primus should be up in about 10 minutes. Be comforted that they play the soft guitar music in the room during the break too. #netneutrality
142. Primus Canada is up now. #netneutrality
143. Primus: We have implemented a ITMP. #netneutrality
144. Primus: Very time-sensitive traffic gets highest priority, very popular is next highest, non-popular (P2P and BT) are lowest. #netneutrality
145. Primus: No QoS if there is no congestion at the time. No one-size-fits-all solution. #netneutrality
146. Primus: We wont cease building capacity, we understand the need to continue to build capacity in out network. #netneutrality
147. Primus: We are not a broadcaster and we are not affiliated with any. We believe ITMP was the best way to relieve congestion. #netneutrality
148. Primus: We do not collect specific information about users and usage with our DPI and have no interest in doing so. #netneutrality
149. Primus: All ISPs should be permitted to manage their networks and implement ITMPs in the manner they deem appropriate. #netneutrality
150. Primus: Nothing fundamentally problematic with either technological practices or economic ones. @netneutrality
151. Primus: If end-users do not change their habits or usage pattern ITMPs do little more than result in a price increase. #netneutrality
152. Primus: We believe we have achieved an acceptable balance at the present. Our ITMP has been met with positive reviews. #netneutrality
153. Primus re Disclosure: Disclosure should be restricted to customer facing ITMPs and not outward facing security related ITMPs #netneutrality
154. Primus: Wholesale ISPs must be required to provide advanced to their wholesale customers. #netneutrality
155. Primus: Our DPI-based solution is used solely to ensure that when congestion occurs we can respond. Not Ads, Not snooping. #netneutrality
156. Primus is running a little bit long and was asked to summarize (I think they noticed the MJ reference on the next page). #netneutrality
157. Konrad: What are your thoughts on application based ITMPs? #netneutrality
158. Primus: That is between the ISP and its end customers. Our selection is based on the needs of the application. #netneutrality
159. Primus: If an application is popular on the network it will receive priority. #netneutrality
160. Konrad: What’s acceptable between the ILEC and the “middleman”. #netneutrality
161. Primus: When there is an issue it should have been address by the downstream ISP not Bell. #netneutrality
162. Katz: Have you asked Bell whether they would offer a guaranteed level of service? Primus: They’ll get back to us, and didn’t. #netneutrality
163. @caparsons From their oral: “Primus has deployed a deep packet inspection-based QoS technology on it’s ONNET Service” #netneutrality
164. Denton: No questions. #netneutrality
165. Molnar: Provide priority to streaming media. If two people wanted to watch a movie there ould be a different experience? #netneutrality
166. Primus: There is a different between P2P and streaming fundamentally. P2P file-sharing is download and watch later. #netneutrality
167. Primus: Summary: Yes there is a different caliber offered. There is the expectation of the customer. #netneutrality
168. Primus: If you’re the content provider providing it via P2P, which I think is a great tech, but it’s a different exp. #netneutrality
169. Molnar: You compete on quality, price and speed, but not on content. Isn’t your new paradigm a shift in that?
170. Primus: We’re not talking about turning about a 2hour download to a 12 hour, it might ad 15 minutes. #netneutrality
171. Primus: But that’s what you would get with a static throttle (like bell) you will never get 200k on a static throttle. #netneutrality
172. Primus: At any point the network can determine there is congestion it will apply the QoS to that part of the network. #netneutrality
173. LaM: You are snooping into the packet. Why are we comforted that you are behaving properly? Isn’t there something between? #netneutrality
174. Primus: We considered a number other solutions dpi was the best. Since we don’t store any aggregated data no provacy concern #netneutrality
175. Molnar: How difficult to change policy rules on DPI. #netneutrality
176. Primus: The limitation is not the hardware or software it’s ensuring that customers aren’t negatively affected. #netneutrality@caparsons Very interesting, I wonder if it was implemented in the meantime. #netneutrality
177. Primus (breaking our record for no MJ coverage): Customers streaming MJ would have gotten priority as the most popular. #netneutrality
178. That’s it for today… Starting again tomorrow morning at 9am for more ISP excitement. #netneutrality
179. IFTA submitted a comparison document between Canada and the US communication regulation. #netneutrality
180. Also submitted all of the Best Picture Oscars won by IFTA members. #netneutrality

Stay tuned …

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July, 2009

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This entry was posted on Thursday, July 9th, 2009 at 4:05 pm and is filed under P2P. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

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