p2pnet news view Freedom | P2P:- Last Friday, we wound up the CIPPIC traffic throttling / net neutrality in Canada Twitter coverage of Day Five of the CRTC hearings a tad early, missing the last post, which was »»»

© Interlude:consultations announced: July 20-Sept 13. Cross country roundtables, online consultations too http://ur1.ca/751g #copyfight

Now we’re back with Day Six when among other things, we learn from Rogers, “If traffic to cure cancer had the same properties [as P2P file sharing] we would have to manage it too.”

Not only but also, “There are about 3 times more media here today than the last five, and probably twice as many (or more) people …”

And, “Molnar: Rogers says dynamic throttling leads to an unpredictable customer experience. Shaw: We don’t think customers notice.”

Really?

AND — “Today everyone is talking about Twitter. (And twitter is talking about you too.   )” »»»

1. Good morning! Big day today, Union des Consommateurs is up. #netneutrality
2. UdC: True problem is controlling the market. Need to take into account broadcasting *and* telecommunications. #netneutrality
3. UdC: Why is P2P being target? They want to maintain the discrimination because their other business is threatened #netneutrality
4. UdC: Discrimination will scuttle innovation of applications on the network. #netneutrality
5. UdC: Companies are going to say “we can’t invest.” Companies in other countries provide such services through investment. #netneutrality
6. UdC: It is not clear from the evidence that P2P is the cause of congestion, if such a problem actually exists. #netneutrality
7. UdC: Rate of growth is in fact decreasing. P2P is growing even more slowly. #netneutrality
8. UdC: Growth in traffic can be accommodated by reasonable growth in capacity. #netneutrality
9. Konrad: Why do you believe more competition will sort out congestion. #netneutrality
10. UdC: Companies control both the telecomm world and the broadcasting, functional separation. #netneutrality
11. Konrad: You’re the first person to mention “shallow packet inspection” is it being used somewhere? #netneutrality
12. UdC: Not in practice as far as I know. #netneutrality
13. Denton: You said: 1) increase network capacity. 2) no app specific 3) need to functional separation. #netneutrality
14. UdC: Correct. Denton: Traffic management interferes with innovation? #netneutrality
15. UdC: Allowing P2P can be used for very innovative purposes. texting, science. #netneutrality
16. Denton: The problem of traffic management is created by a lack of competition? UdC: Correct. Also conflict of interest. #netneutrality
17. Denton: What’s your take away message? UdC: Needs to be clear measurement studies. #netneutrality
18. LaM: Companies say expensive to invest, your examples are much less vast. Aren’t there particularities? #netneutrality
19. UdC: If you look at Scandenavian countries. Compare us to Sweden, they’re leading us by fair margin. #netneutrality
20. LaM: Must not forget about all Canadians. UdC: Well then look at Australia, 100Mbit to everyone. #netneutrality
21. LaM: Truly no country compares to Canada. UdC: Maybe not, but you can look for inspiration elsewhere #netneutrality
22. LaM: Shallow packet inspection is the first step of DPI? UdC: Not really, more like the second step after missing the sig. #netneutrality
23. LaM: You suggest one size fits all? Could create a different kind of inequity.
24. LaM: We have the right to travel, not to travel business class. UdC: We should start treating inet as an essential service. #netneutrality
25. UdC is down, Rogers is up to the tables now. They have at least a dozen at the table? #netneutrality
26. Rogers: in ‘95 we sold 1.5Mbps service sold for $60 today 10Mbps sells for 46.95. #netneutrality
27. Rog: They want lawyers NOT engineers to design our networks, this would be a mistake. #netneutrality
28. Rog: We are committed to an open Internet. #netneutrality
29. Rog: We urge the CRTC not to specify ITM guidelines at the time. #netneutrality
30. Rog: Internet is too new, and changes too quickly. #netneutrality
31. Rog: Some have suggested we do not invest in capacity. Nothing could be further from the truth. #netneutralityRog: We invest 10s of millions in new and current customers. #netneutrality
32. Rog: P2P is 24/7 machine to machine traffic. Think of our network as a highway, cars can cause trouble for eachother. #netneutrality
33. Rog: We don’t care about the application, it’s the 24/7 maximum use of the network that creates problems. #netneutrality
34. Rog: BT (presumably) is designed to swamp the network and that’s why it must be managed. #netneutrality
35. Rog: Our practices have nothing to do with protecting our cable television businesses. Other networks do the same thing.
36. Rog: There is enough information there for wholesalers… We could provide more information to the commission in confidence. #netneutrality
37. Rog: We are sensitive to our customers privacy concerns, we do not open emails or look at message content. #netneutrality
38. Rog: We do not currently rate shape our mobile wireless data traffic. But it might have to happen. Too early to know. #netneutrality
39. Rog: Our TMP do not control the content. (s36) The movie remains the same no matter how long it takes to download a movie. #netneutrality
40. Rog: We have heard the “hypothetical concerns of various vested interest groups.” We have heard very little about customers. #netneutrality
41. Konrad: Wouldn’t it be helpful to lay out a framework for everyone concerned instead of case by case as you suggested? #netneutrality
42. Rog: 1) Been here 23 years, CRTC never needed guidelines you’ve done just fine. #netneutrality
43. Rog: 2) Bit concerned, there is a bias against network management. That’s dangerous. #netneutrality
44. Rog: Framework should be looking at the good of the customers. Assume that TMP are for the customer’s benefit #netneutrality
45. Rog: Look at what corporate and university networks do. #netneutrality
46. Rog: We also use heuristics to determine types of encrypted traffic. #netneutrality
47. Konrad: You only shape upstream, doesn’t that affect the person on the other side? #netneutrality
48. Rog: It happens sometimes. We did an experiment in our labs in Toronto. A bunch of people wanted to download a file we had. #netneutrality
49. Rog: None were Canadian or Rogers customers. (That was a bizarre experiment, I’m not sure it proved anything) #netneutrality
50. Rog: It seems strange to build capacity to support someone else’s customers. People downloading are not ours. #netneutrality
51. Molnar: What do you say to the argument that by the time we get through a hearing the damage is done? #netneutrality
52. Rog: The Internet is new and things are happening very fast. Guidelines could prevent us from benefiting customers. #netneutrality
53. Rog: Evidence show that ISPs in order to be competitive we need to be open. Net neutrality concerns are over blown. #netneutrality
54. Molnar: Wouldn’t the evidence mean that there has already been a failure? That seems like a strange way to do things. #netneutrality
55. Molnar: Why need to throttle 24/7 than to target the times of congestion? #netneutrality
56. Rog: Let’s talk about cars and highway analogies. (ugh I hate these) We build bigger highways every year. #netneutrality
57. Rog: If a car parks by the side of the road or stops in a lane, then there is a problem. #netneutrality
58. Molnar: I don’t get your analogy. Rog: P2P clogs the network 24 hours a day. #netneutrality
59. I’m not sure why exactly Rogers is talking about cars and not networks. But it’s frustrating for the network people listening #netneutrality
60. Rog: Being a cable modem network, upstream can’t be controlled. Upstream is the rest of the world not our customers. #netneutrality
61. RT @jacobglick: #CRTC – Here’s a look at who’s blocking BitTorrent and how much – http://bit.ly/12CL7P #netneutrality
62. Molnar: You say that Comcast approach is more expensive and cause problems. #netneutrality
63. Rog: Comcast restricts all applications not just the ones causing problems. (Actually only for the people using a lot of BW) #netneutrality
64. Molnar: You just recently disclosed? Rog: Yes that’s correct. #netneutrality
65. Molnar: You’re saying customers are not curious. When theyre buying capacity, you don’t think those customers are interested? #netneutrality
66. Molnar: Nothing in advertising indicating limitations, the only difference between express and extreme is upstream. #netneutrality
67. Molnar: If you’re really concerned about the customer shouldn’t they know what’s going on? #netneutrality
68. Molnar: What are your views regarding requiring more information advertising? #netneutrality
69. Rog: Also a different in the bitcap, we have not advertised it to date. It’s competitively sensitive information. #netneutrality
70. Molnar: “competitive sensitivity” lead to two more questions. What are your thoughts on ITMPs being a form of differentiation #netneutrality
71. Rog: Very competitive market. We are the fastest most reliable and building more speed into it. #netneutrality
72. Molnar: Moving on to wireless. Anything technically different between wireless and wireline? #netneutrality
73. Rog: Options are the same, customers are different with different priorities. (First straight answer for 15 minutes.) #netneutrality
74. Katz: Look at other jurisdictions as well. You say FCC did nothing at all. But comcast needed to be more agnostic. #netneutrality
75. Katz: How significant would cost be if you have to follow FCC statement? #netneutrality
76. Rog: FCC was just annoyed by Comcast’s legal games. We think that the Comcast solution would be bad for customers. #netneutrality
77. Katz: But Comcast did, what would it take for you to do it. #netneutrality
78. Rog: We would hate to use that methodology, it would be bad for customers. No idea on costs. But we can ask. #netneutrality
79. For a good background on Comcast’s new ITMP see the EFF’s review of it. http://bit.ly/IM0sk #netneutrality
80. LaM: The way you’re describing P2P leads me to great reservations. #netneutrality
81. LaM: P2P is about more than just downloading movies, and your “evidence” is just anecdotal not scientific. #netneutrality
82. LaM: You are using economic means to manage traffic demands right? Rog: Yes. #netneutrality
83. LaM: Shallow packet inspection would be better for privacy right? #netneutrality
84. Rog: There has been a misunderstanding about DPI and privacy. No records kept, just classification and moving it along. #netneutrality
85. Rog: All sorts of people can do privacy invasive things, but we’re not doing them and it’s illegal. #netneutrality
86. Rog: We do keep some aggregated data for network management and statistics (like the ones we provided the commission) #netneutrality
87. Denton: Two large and different narratives. OIC/CIPPIC says need can be met by investment and need to be forward looking. #netneutrality
88. Denton: “In the voice of sweet reasonableness” you told us to relax and slow down. Why does OIC/CIPPIC have the story wrong? #netneutrality
89. Rog: We are meeting that growth with 10s of mill. investment staying 6 months ahead of problems. #netneutrality
90. Rog: CIPPIC/OIC is worried that we’ll hunt down packets and ask for money. This is not a net neutrality issue. (?!) #netneutrality
91. Rog: If traffic to cure cancer had the same properties we would have to manage it too. #netneutrality
92. Rog: Paying-per-bit would upset a lot of people, they would hate it. We’re trying to have happy customers. #netneutrality
93. Konrad: If you were not allowed to control upstream in this way, what would you do? *crickets* #netneutrality
94. Rog: We would be in a state of congestion, we would try pricing mechanisms but they wouldn’t work well. #netneutrality
95. Konrad: What about pricing measures on the upstream? Rog: It would be tricky and no-one has done it. #netneutrality
96. Looking like Rogers is done, time for some soft guitar while we get ready for videotron. #netneutrality
97. There are about 3 times more media here today than the last five, and probably twice as many (or more) people. #netneutrality
98. Guitar over, Videotron up. Videotron is the biggest services provider in Quebec. #netneutrality.
99. VT: The internet is an evolving and unpredictable network. Resist the temptation to impose regulation. #netneutrality
100. VT: Some people say that this was a result of failure to invest in the network. We have invested well over 100m in ours. #netneutrality
101. VT: Network ops always try to make the most of their investments. Traffic management effectively make the Internet affordable #netneutrality
102. @gwtrink3 They said that they keep aggregate stats but nothing about actual consumer usage. Pretty consistent across the board apparently
103. VT: does not currently use DPI or technological measures. So far we are happy with the result of “economic” measures. #netneutrality
104. RT @michaelgeist: VT Ban on ITMP would not create incentive to invest. Opposite is true. We establish caps, shaping. #netneutrality
105. VT: Regulation should be made only in response to real problems… Not hypotheticals. #netneutrality
106. VT is talking about wholesale issues specific to cable as opposed to DSL. #netneutrality
107. VT is finishing up. Essentially says that TMP is unavoidable and that arguments otherwise are purely speculative. #netneutrality
108. Konrad: Lunch break at noon, back at 2 (??) some scheduling problems apparently. What has been your experience with TMPs? #netneutrality
109. VT: We do not use technical means like Rogers, there is a fairly strong correlation between usage and bitcaps. #netneutrality
110. Konrad: You haven’t experienced traffic problems like Rogers said would completely scuttle their systems? #netneutrality
111. VT: No economic measures have been enough. #netneutrality
112. VT: Since ‘99 we have been using threshholds and our clients have reacted very positively. They understand how it works #netneutrality
113. LaM: How much does it cost per user to implement metered billing? VT: We can get you that information. #netneutrality
114. Break until 2pm, VT will continue after the break. #netneutrality
115. And we’re back, should be hearing some more questions to Videotron before we move on to Shaw. #netneutrality\
116. LaM: You says it would be unreasonable and unproductive to provide extensise disclosure of methods used. Non-producitive? #netneutrality
117. VT: It would be very confusing and it would lead to calls to customer service. Some disclosure would be adaquate. #netneutrality
118. LaMarre and Videotron are having a conversation regarding competition in the market and degrading quatlity of service. #netneutrality
119. VT: DPI has no impact on privacy. #netneutrality
120. LaM: How do you assure customers that you’re not invading their privacy. VT: By never touching the “content” of the packet. #netneutrality
121. @alimarin It came from the CRTC hearing today, transcripts should be up later this week. (ideally tomorrow) http://bit.ly/7Y3m5
122. @caparsons Just tweeting what I hear. I am not sure what the D in DPI stands for if not looking at content. #netneutrality
123. @gregobr I saw that suggestion earlier last week, still think it’s an great idea. #netneutrality
124. VT: We need to consider our whole customer base when determining investment not just excess users. #netneutrality
125. VT: Network management are good on their own, not just used as a response to failure to invest or build proper networks. #netneutrality
126. Videotron is finished, time for a 5 minute guitar break. Shaw Cable should be up next. #netneutrality
127. And we’re back, Shaw is up.
128. Shaw: By the end of 2009 DOCSIS 3.0 will be launched in all of our major centers. #netneutrality
129. Shaw: Traffic management is about serving customers and maintaining trust. #netneutrality
130. Shaw: As recently as 2008 a chassis was not being shaped for a month. Resulted in major congestion problem and complaints. #netneutrality
131. Shaw: We only shape traffic during periods of congestion. Slow upstream side only of P2P apps. #netneutrality
132. Shaw: No privacy concerns with our use of DPI. No account specific is generated or stored. #netneutrality
133. Shaw: The content of the packet is never examined. (Errr what’s Deep mean then?) #netneutrality
134. Shaw: Our use of DPI does not influence the meaning or purpose of the telecommunications. Just read s36 plainly. #netneutrality
135. Shaw: The retail ISP market in Canada is intensely competitive and no ISP can afford to be at a disadvantage. #netneutrality
136. Shaw: Parties who oppose ITMP are entirely speculative. #netneutrality
137. Konrad: It only comes into effect when there is congestion right? Shaw: That’s exactly correct. #netneutrality
138. Konrad: Like up with peak hours? Shaw: Little bit, but varies region to region. #netneutrality
139. @gregobr: Was certainly not explored very well. Probably because of the practice everyone got with these issues in CAIP v. Bell.
140. Katz: Does your IP network compete with all of your IP services for resources? Shaw: There is separation. #netneutrality
141. Katz: Strong proponent of market forces. Why not just let the market decide? Explain why you don’t strive for that. #netneutrality
142. Katz: So some of your customers are subsidizing other customers? Shaw: No, we’re just trying to keep it simple. #netneutrality
143. Katz: Do you bundle services with lock in? Shaw: No long-term contracts. #netneutrality
144. Katz: Nothing to suggest that P2P users are on your wholesaler customers network than your own? #netneutrality
145. Shaw: … … … Katz: Can you file some information a comparison of usage and customer base. #netneutrality
146. Katz: Explain how innovation and investment would be stifled by putting together a framework. #netneutrality
147. Shaw: We respond to the market on a continuing basis. Planning is hard. Bandwidth is expensive to augment and is scarce. #netneutrality
148. Katz: Under what conditions does block content not violate section 36? #netneutrality
149. Shaw: Some things like public policy or legal obligations. #netneutrality
150. Katz: Can you file how hard it would be to use a Comcast solution. (I think I heard a hard swallow) #netneutrality
151. They are having a conversation about implications of implementing Comcast solution and FCC order. #netneutrality
152. Shaw: We never did what they did, why would we comment on what they’ve done. There is zero cost if we don’t do it. #netneutrality
153. Feels like Shaw is getting a little heated. #netneutrality
154. LaM: How can customers make educated decisions if you’re not providing the information to consumers. #netneutrality
155. Shaw: You make a good point maybe we should inform our customers more. #netneutrality
156. LaM: How is slowing something down dramatically not interference with the content?! #netneutrality
157. Shaw: There isn’t any impact on the downstream. LaM: Consumers want to upload as well though… #netneutrality
158. LaM: You say DPI doesn’t raise privacy concerns, we heard different. How do you reassure customers that you’re being good. #netneutrality
159. Shaw: Legislative measures are very strong protections. (PIPEDA) #netneutrality
160. Denton: I’m getting bored so lets have a fight. #netneutrality
161. Denton: Are you sensitive to the concern that app-specific measures are troubling to #netneutrality.
162. Shaw: We don’t know what people are going to be able to do with the network. #netneutrality
163. Shaw: We want to support the creators and producers. Our interest is making sure that the system works. #netneutrality
164. Denton: P2P can generate congestion. If this is going to be rationally managed. How do you fairly solve this problem? #netneutrality
165. Shaw: Our purpose isn’t throttling P2P it’s about ensuring the other applications work P2P gets 30% upstream during congestion#netneutrality
166. Shaw: We didn’t predict video over network, ITMPs allow us to be proactive. #netneutrality
167. Denton: Which is more important, pricing or traffic management. Shaw: Pricing. #netneutrality
168. Molnar: Is targeted traffic management more expensive that 24/7? Shaw: Not for us. #netneutrality
169. Molnar: Rogers says dynamic throttling leads to an unpredictable customer experience. Shaw: We don’t think customers notice. #netneutrality
170. Molnar: Someone suggested ISPs should be required to advertise throttled speeds. Discuss. Shaw: Not useful to the customer #netneutrality
171. Shaw: It will be made aware when they’re using the service. Molnar: Different thing to be noticed before and after the fact. #netneutrality
172. Konrad: Do you separate out time-sensitive P2P? Shaw: Yes, we have engineer that dedicate their lives to figuring this out. #netneutrality
173. Shaw: Today everyone is talking about Twitter. (And twitter is talking about you too. )#netneutrality
174. And we’re going to finish there today and start up again tomorrow at 8:30. There was a collective ugh around the room. #netneutrality

Stay tuned …

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July, 2009

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This entry was posted on Monday, July 13th, 2009 at 4:40 pm and is filed under Freedom, P2P. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

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