But seriously, you support degrading a file sharers connection to the point that it’s unusable and then come here to debate? That’s like me coming here saying that I will hack iTunes until the end of time so that artists aren’t able to profit from their music. Your group is in a position of power, we’re not. You guys have the funds to lobby politicians in order to craft new laws. We don’t. So please don’t come at me with this bullshit that I want to be the judge, jury and executioner for the P2P community.

Jon, you know I respect what you do but I don’t have the same faith in these people. Good luck in trying to work with people like Billy.

Billy – “We just may have started something revolutionary.”

A genuine, no-holds-barred discussion between musicians and people who like music can’t be anything but good.

Drake – We’ve virtually known each other for a long time and believe me, I wouldn’t be committing myself like this unless I honestly thought it could make a significant and positive difference.

Cheers!

Don’t worry, I’ve had much worse thrown at me in this debate. Weekend before last, I was trying to engage the P2Pers at torrentfreak is this same debate.
They reacted by accusing me of coming from the Matrix and refused to speak with me. In such situations, I find a sense of humour mixed with a bit of sarcasm helps move the debate along.

I’ll be continuing this debate over on Jon’s We Are the Walrus thread. Thanks to everyone who posted here. We just may have started something revolutionary.

Salut

“By supporting the silly 3 strike rule which either disconnects or slows down ALLEGED copyright violators you have shown that you’re just as irrational as the criminals who run the big labels.”
Drake, read his previous posts please. I hate the idea of throttling connections of alleged copywrong violators, but even that was a setback for the labels who also hate the idea but for different reasons. Look at what’s happening in France (where it may well be plain and simple disconnection with heavy fines). In order to prevail in a struggle you should correctly identify your enemies in the first place, which are labels, not artists.

Please do not take Drakes views as typical, I think I can safely say that most people are pleased that someone who might actually have some weight to pull is actually trying to find out what makes a filesharer tick so to speak, and we can work out a common ground, end of the day we are simple members of the public and are not unreasonable as a whole.

Oh, and Dan Bull did get his donation from me for his free album and Dear Lily track, just for the record, no pun intended

I *want* to pay for stuff I use, but I can’t afford to pay the RRP sometimes. Be assured however that I do pay for what I really like, flipping heck, I have a couple of movies that I had purchased legally on VHS and later on DVD, this is despite having downloaded and watched it in cam, TS and then DVDRip… I like it, I try and buy it. I have at last count 250 or so DVD’s, almost every single one I had downloaded previously. All my friends are much the same, we all download things, but we equally all buy them also.

Now someone is going to jump up and say, “well if you can’t afford it, then you shouldn’t have it.”

There is no argument from me, there is no justification. Its a case of “I can, so I will.” But I do balance things back out buy paying for what is worth paying for after the fact. Filesharing didn’t make thieves out of most of us, it made us able to be more selective. I think I’m fairly typical.

Thanks for you post. If I’d have known you were out there waiting to be both judge, jury and executioner for the P2P community, I could have saved myself three days of honest debate. Glad to see that you have such a clear view of the world and how things are.

And you think I’m the irrational one???? Sheesh.

Surfer,

I actually own my copyrights, only licensing them to labels for a set period, usually 7 years. I have to take a smaller advance, but I get my stuff back. Part of our FAC education programme with fellow artists is to open their eyes to the licensing option. We are campaigning to make life of copyright assignment illegal in the EU, as it is in Germany, where they only license stuff to labels.

In addition to believing that you are irrational, I also believe that you don’t deserve our respect. Since you want to go after file sharers I encourage your fans to boycott you and stop buying your CD’s and other merchandise until you stop supporting drastic action actions file sharers. Sadly, I don’t have the influence to kick-start such a boycott but I think a lot of file sharers will agree that the actions you are taking are counterproductive and definitely a step backwards.

I sincerely hope that this backfires on you.

“But their spokeswoman says she’ll never make another record again. That is a very heavy price to pay. I don’t think any other young artists will be willing to ’shill’ for them again any time soon.”
Come on, if her new career doesn’t work she’ll just record something new and tell some PR BS like “I really wanted to get in touch with my fans again” — and if her album doesn’t sell well, she’ll blame P2P. It’s not as if she hadn’t already made contradicting statements. But you’re right, finding someone as clueless as her to play the spokesperson for the mafiaa may indeed be difficult.

“We called a crisis meeting, inviting every artist we knew, including Lily, to come along to see if we could thrash out a clear position for all artists involved in this debate. She turned up and the position that we agreed on – bandwidth squeezing – was a compromise, I admit, but crucially, it was not a vote in favour of the record industry position of suspension. You people in the P2P community are pissed off with us, but, trust me, the major labels are more pissed off.”
I think I get your point, however this definitely shows that there are many artists who need to get rid of the label BS and start to think differently. There’s no point in sinking with the labels which are doomed anyway. Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails, Smashin Pumpkins should serve as examples… What you did seems to be positive, let’s hope things will get better. I’ll bookmark FAC’s website and keep an eye on it.

see, over the ages, the kartels have squeezed billions from the customers in the name of greed, now the internet replaced ( I do mean past tense) their distribution model, and they are not able to squeeze the sheeple any more. it stands to calculate that they have presented sufficient content/profit margin, even on the Milli Vanill’s they spit out, to satiate the most voracious appetite, yet they plunder on…

while filesharing is not illegal (for the umpteenth time) it a civil infraction that can be litigated in a CIVIL court, for recompense, and while you may think that file sharing is amoral, it aint going anywhere, ever. I file share, I also write software, lots of it, and there is probably 80% of people that use my software that didnt pay for it, but you know what, I make money by writing more software, mebbe you get it, mebbe you dont, but I live very comfortably… mebbe you should try it, working, I mean…

whats really funny is that BPI, or IFPI, or whatever useless organization, thinks that 7 million brits are file sharing ‘criminals’.. that number isn’t that far off, now extend that globally, and multiply to 4.

Jack Valenti would roll over in his grave if he really knew how deep file sharing goes…, we started organizing 6 years ago, hello?!

I am impressed, however that yet another misguided mouthpiece actually has the cojones to go toe-to-toe with Henry. Keep up the good work Bill, you are bound to convince someone, some of us however, are gone for good.

Hang out, I bet you learn something you didn’t know while reading P2PNet..

stw

Some artists are well aware that it is the labels who are robbing us. New bands are being asked to sign contracts which still have mandatory packaging deductions – for mp3 sales, fer Chrisakes! Why do they do it? Because they don’t know any better. That’s why we need to educate – not just a dialogue, a whole programme of outreach events showing artists like Maggie how they can make a fair living making music.

Reader’s Write,

It’s just not as simple as choosing sides. In order to change attitudes, we have to engage with the labels and unfortunately for us, last week it was on their terms. The trouble began with an interview members of the FAC board,including myself gave to the Times newspaper. You can read it here:
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/article6828262.ece

The majors went ballistic and used all their various media channels to portray the FAC as pro-pirate, anti-artist commies. That severely undermined our position with fellow artists. The labels spent the week attempting to pressurise us into signing up to a statement calling for suspension of internet access as a final resort, continually accusing us of being in support of illegal file-sharing. When we refused to sign up, Lily Allen’s blogs began appearing. Not only was she attacking our stance, she was actively rallying artists against us – or rather, her management and label were. James Blunt the first big name to back her, shares management, as does her other big supporter, Elton John. Other artists posted on her site, thinking it was a debating forum rather than a highly focussed PR campaign.

In order to not be completely marginalised by the labels, we had to make it clear to other artists that we were not pro-pirate, that we wanted the websites that make money giving our music away to be closed down, but that we believed P2P was a good means of promotion. This nuanced argument got lost in the media shit-storm and more and more artists were implicitly signing up to suspension via Lily’s campaign.

We called a crisis meeting, inviting every artist we knew, including Lily, to come along to see if we could thrash out a clear position for all artists involved in this debate. She turned up and the position that we agreed on – bandwidth squeezing – was a compromise, I admit, but crucially, it was not a vote in favour of the record industry position of suspension. You people in the P2P community are pissed off with us, but, trust me, the major labels are more pissed off. They had promised the government that their would be no opposition to suspension. Not only did they fail to bring us into line, but their spokeswoman says she’ll never make another record again. That is a very heavy price to pay. I don’t think any other young artists will be willing to ’shill’ for them again any time soon.

It was strongly expressed by the attendees at the meeting that the statement should not be seen as coming from the FAC and we accepted that. The press however has put us in a vanguard role in the debate, although we are simply facilitating discussions between artists, fans, file-sharers, labels, ISP and government. Hence my presence here.

cqb,

There are indeed holes in what you’ve written, but at least we’re talking. Hopefully we can educate each other and find that common ground that helps Maggie to find the customers she seeks.

I’m going to assume you are smart enough to realise that the people posting on sites like this are not typical and can be taken as an average file sharer. The proposals put forward are going to do nothing at all to stop persistent filesharers, but will do plenty to cause bad press and resentment to a much wider audience.

Most filesharers will simply start using a VPN/seedbox and continue as normal, one thing to consider is the moeny for that seedbox is going to be coming directly out of each persons disposable income that would have been spent on media consumption… I know I sure as hell won’t be skipping a pack of beer to pay for a seedbox, it will come out of the money that would have bought a dvd. Nice shot to the foot right there guys.

Now on a brighter note, most people are fundamentally honest and do actually pay for goods you are trying to sell them. Mostly. Take for example myself this last week or so, I watched the “Dear Lily” video by Dan Bull, I followed to his little homepage and found his album for download. Now its not a genre I normally listen to, but I grabbed it and had a listen. I can say I would never ever in a month of sundays buy it in a store, Its not my thing at all. But I did appreciate his honesty and the opportunity to donate what I feel its worth to me. Dan Bull will be getting 2 or 3 quid from me, I don’t feel its worth more than that to myself, others hopefully do.

The thing to note here is that he put it out there, hopefully people are going to give something back, he comes across as a smart guy who speaks a lot of sense and I can respect that, I also respect and respond to people putting their trust in me, I will donate something back. Will I ever donate to anything the big four do… the way I feel right now, no not ever. They can change that though, but many people already feel that they have done so much harm they deserve nothing more than to die out. Consumers have the money, as artists you really want to consider which side you chose to stand on this fight.

Trust your customers, use the web, sell direct. Build a relationship with consumers and prosper.

There is no doubt a bajillion holes in what I have written, I am tired but I think my meaning is clear. Gives us a chance to pay what we think is fair, you may be surprised. Remember that many many many programming projects and websites survive on donations from people using the service supplied for free.

I have to say, I’m feeling better about you already.
I grilled you to no small extent, and you managed to address quite a bit of the issue, point-by-point, all the while keeping your cool by the looks of it. As many “here” should agree, that’s a far better representation than any of the labels’ shills have been willing to consider.

Since we’re all just getting acquainted now, and we’re talking, that does moot the point of not having talked before.

Judging by your understanding of the “Lily Allen Affair”, I think we’re actually on a similar plane about The Labels.

One thing I wasn’t quite clear on until now was that all the “FAC news” we were hearing involved more than just the FAC artists. Before we exchanged, I was under the impression it was solely the FAC participating in those discussions. I see now, I need to pay closer attention to what is coming from whom.

Like Jon, I’m somewhat relieved that the FAC wasn’t announcing some misguided mission into our classrooms. My thinking on that now is, perhaps “education” is not a suitable terminology to what you seem to want to accomplish. Is “dialogue” between artists and filesharers a needed thing?… Absolutely! Do these filesharers actually need to be educated on anything?… Not sure about that. What I am sure about is that your industry has very successfully managed to taint the relationship between the artists and the fans, mainly due to the position the fans and the artists where placed in all of it. This relationship needs to be repaired immediately!

I guess what doesn’t help either side is that there are still a shitload of artists out there that are going to bat for the labels, and feel some misplaced obligation to actively shun the entire filesharing community, and blaming them and all technology they legally possess and use for all their current problems. If at least part of the mission of the FAC is to restore the admiration and respect us fans want so desperately to feel for our artists again, they need to be genuinely promoting a reverse to this mass ostracization, and genuinely mean it when they do.

I honestly think that if the artist-fan relationship is restored, you won’t even need to “educate” anyone. It’s admiration and respect that gets you fans (read “paying customers”). As long as the fans are led to believe the artists are as much against them as the MAFIAA itself, they won’t buy anything, and will continue to download everything they can, if for no other reason that to just prove a point.

Credit where credit is due, I am pleased to, at long last, see an artist of your calibre willing to talk to “us” about all this stuff on a meaningful level. That makes me cautiously optimistic (which is a more positive feeling than I’ve had about the music industry in quite a while).

For me, it’s all done: I hate the mafiaa and the record companies because they threaten our basic freedoms, but this doesn’t mean I hate artists. In fact, I am willing to pay a fair price. For instance I have paid my LimeWire Pro whereas I could have downloaded a pirated copy for free. Why? Because LimeWire is a nice application, I could test their basic version, it’s open source, and at the end of the day I wanted to support them. I’m also willing to pay a fair price for the music, but not to the mafiaa. There are decent proposals for that, see http://www.globalpatronage.org/ please. This proposal hasn’t been tested yet but it’s definitely worth to take a look at. No Orwellian surveillance of P2P networks, no mass lawsuits, no money sent to throttle connections (which just wouldn’t work anyway), and real money to support artists.

As a file sharer, I couldn’t care less if the big labels all go bankrupt. I do, however, support artists. I listen to many bands who are signed to major labels and although I enjoy their music, I don’t think they have any right to complain about “illegal” downloading. Did you ever borrow a tape from a friend when you were a kid? Did you ever create a mixed tape? If so, then you’re no better than any file sharer.

The only difference between the way we all SHARE music today and the way we SHARED music in the past is that the Internet has made it possible to share with more people. I’ll tell you what hasn’t changed though; the big labels are still fucking artists up the ass every chance they get. I really think a lot of you need to look at the big picture and figure out who’s really robbing you.

I’m an indie musician. I own all the rights to all the songs on my CDs, and always have. When people ask what label I’m on, I say “millions for caca” which is a label I made up.

I play out about twice a month, kind of limited due to an injury, and have a FT day job because it comes with health insurance for my kids.

I released my latest CD about a year ago. I financed almost all of it with a grant from the arts council in the county where I live.

I’ve got my own website and am on reverbnation, ourstage, myspace, Facebook, IAC, etc. My website and myspace have collectively gotten about 30,000 hits in the past 11 months. I’ve made about $300 in online song sales in the past year.

I’d like to keep creating in the studio. Because I don’t play out much, I don’t want to invest in T-shirts. How is either of your models going to do anything but cost me money to do my art now?

(Billy I remember meeting you at WMNF in Tampa where I used to work. We have the same birthday )

Billy says, “… we have an education event for fellow artists on Monday night.”

If you could be there, what would you say?

Cheers!

PS –

“You’ve misunderstood me. I’m not advocating going into schools at all. When I say education, I mean we need to educate P2P users AND artists via dialogue like this. Maybe my use of the word ‘kids’ was what gave you the wrong impression. Most of the people I know who use P2P are much younger than me and more internet savvy, hence ‘kids’. Apologies.”

As a dad and a music lover, I’m relieved to see that.

Meanwhile, if this exchange isn’t a one-off, it’s very rare and tomorrow I’ll be doing a follow-up post based on it.

This is the way things will get sorted – musicians talking directly with the people who listen to their music.

Thanks, Billy.

Definitely stay tuned.

Cheers!

“Until we can get a critical mass of artists to understand that the record industry doesn’t always act in our best interests and that we need to take the initiative on the issue of copyright and access, we have to keep engaged in discussion and education.”

Exactly right.

I’d really appreciate a word or 10 with you about an idea I have. If that’s cool with you, please email me at p2pnet @ shaw dot ca privately and in confidence telling me how I can contact you.

Cheers!

I agree with much of what you say. Only problem is, everyone who has recorded so far has given their copyrights away for full term. Its going to be a real struggle to get them into the public domain before they expire – both copyright and artist.

Making money having fun? I’m all in favour of that.

Devil’s Advocate

1) Fair enough. However, FAC is only a few months old and until Jon began discussing my Guardian post, I didn’t know that you guys existed either. You appeared in my google search and, seeing that you were debating the FAC stance, I engaged. Is there any other way we could have been having this conversation today?

2) How is that wrong? They presume to speak for us. When we speak for ourselves they run for cover – or push other artists like Lily Allen to the fore so she can take all the flak for them. They worked out well didn’t it? What happened to her was a good example of the way your community can bring its voice to bear. Thanks to all the negative comments posted by P2P users, I doubt the labels will find another artist willing to publicly champion their stance for a long while.

3) And the example I cited above how quickly that strategy can backfire on them

4) You’ve misunderstood me. I’m not advocating going into schools at all. When I say education, I mean we need to educate P2P users AND artists via dialogue like this. Maybe my use of the word ‘kids’ was what gave you the wrong impression. Most of the people I know who use P2P are much younger than me and more internet savvy, hence ‘kids’. Apologies.

5) Name one? Billy Bragg. I’m signed to a label called Cooking Vinyl in the UK and to Anti here in the USA. On Monday, during the sound-check at The Great American Music Hall, I will record a brand new song called Constitution Hill which has never been made available and give it away for free on my website. How can I get away with that? Because I work with labels that have a better understanding of how the record industry benefits from the internet.

6) Listen, if I had a pound for every downloader who has told me to stop trying to make money from recorded music, I’d be rich. A musician who comes onto a file-sharing comment thread and opposes free downloading is likely to be told to stop whinging and sell more t-shirts.

I accept that FAC need to deliver a better message that clearly states where we stand on file-sharing, but you have to understand that the vast majority of artists are still wedded to the record industry view of downloading as a threat. There were over 60 artists in the room last week when we were discussing how to respond to the industry’s demand that the govt pass laws to suspend internet connections, only a dozen from the FAC. Despite evidence that technical sanctions will not work from several IT experts that we invited, the majority was clearly in favour of some kind of sanction. In order to try to stop disconnection, we opted for bandwidth squeezing as a compromise between all of our positions. Our task now is to convince our colleagues that there is no technical solution, but this will take time.

Until we can get a critical mass of artists to understand that the record industry doesn’t always act in our best interests and that we need to take the initiative on the issue of copyright and access, we have to keep engaged in discussion and education. Check our website – we have an education event for fellow artists on Monday night.