I’m tolerant of both (living in Japan, you really need to be) , and yet I can attest that both drinking and smoking can cause injury to other people, if not death.

Alcohol has been a prime part of the human culture since the very beginning, and in many countries, alcoholic beverages are the only “safe” think to drink in those areas. Even now, alcoholic beverages can be the only “safe” drink in areas without bottled water or sodas. Many cultures (like the Chinese) consider refusal of an offer of alcohol from the family elder, an insult worse than slapping the person’s face.

As for smoking, as many know, smoking can about as a method for the village elders to “talk with the gods”, and in some cultures it is considered “rude” to not accept a smoke from a town elder.

Yet at the same time, both smoking and alcohol have destroyed entire cultures.

Injuries related to alcohol really do not need any example, as to the many people who die in DUI related accidents, as well as the common drunken brawl.

And as for Smokers, I know several people were were “accidentally” burned by a careless smoker, a bookstore that burned to the ground by someone who discarded a lit butt in front of the store (Japanese book stores often have magazines out in front of the shop).

I’ve had to physically stop a smoker, who insisted on holding his lit cigarate at his side- right at my daughter’s eye level (and in a non-smoking area at that). Is it my daughter’s fault that she is standing near a person who can’t follow the simplest of laws?

Sure, at the moment both are legal, and as long as they are smoker and drinkers have the legal right to smoke themselves to an early grave, and alcoholics have the right to drink themselves to oblivion. But as long as they are going to be part of a society, it must be dome with moderation.

On the same token, people around them deserve the right to not be subjected to it, and the right to defend themselves from people without the ability to control themselves.

An old 80 year old person with unsightly disfigurations “may” have the right to parade in the nude, for everyone to see, but that doesn’t mean that everyone must be forced to look at them.

Just my two cents

Same thing with smokers and lung cancer.

My aunt was diagnosed with lung cancer in one lung. she has since had that lung removed, and is cancer free so far.

she is also a smoker, BUT her cancer wasnt caused by smoking. If she had died from the lung cancer, she would have been added to stats of people who smoked and died of lung cancer. but like i said, her lung cancer wasnt caused by smoking.

that is one of the ways that the stats are pumped up to increase numbers of smoking/cancer deaths.

Where did she get this info? Canadian Cancer Society

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_pipe

Still I know it’s hazardous and bad for you but at least here they are starting to go to ridiculous lengths to stop smokers from smoking. I.E. all
cigarette boxes have to be totally white and so forth.

As for the lesser of 2 evils… sorry but smoking is less evil in my book.

You are.

“It’s hard to resist, since they use the exact same methodology as RIAA lawyers …”

I’ve made the same comparison at least four or five times, for example http://www.p2pnet.net/story/1153 back in 2004.

I empathise with Dude from Finland and I’m the last one to trivialise alcohol. However, side-by-side, IMO, smoking has nothing at all going for it whereas alcohol is part of societies around the world and has been so ever since the first cavemen ate fermented apples off the ground.

Cheers!

I have been subjected to SHS and SHA. My mother (who is still alive) still smokes to this day, my father (the alcoholic) is not here anymore.
As such I feel I have an opinion to tell everyone what it was like growing up in a household with a smoker and a drunk.

My mother has been smoking about all her life, she started at 16 I think and just turned 63 a little while ago. She quit smoking while she was
pregnant with my brother but continued to smoke when pregnant with me. I haven’t seen any side effects in my growth, build or noticed any
other differences compared to other people of my age. i’m not saying there aren’t, I’m merely poiting out that if such things exist I have not
suffered from any of them.

My father started drinking back in 92 when we had quite a big depression here. He lost his job and was way too proud to go out and find a new
job. He felt that at age 51 he was too old and no one would hire an old timer like him, besides he got more money if he stayed unemployed
than if he went out and found a new job. The only problem was that now he had nothing to do except sit at home and mope about the fact that
he had nothing to do and that he had gotten fired from a manager position at a big firm.

I remeber from my childhood that my parents were at each others throats, fighting about the same subject that is argued about here today.
Smoking vs. alcohol – and pretty much the same arguments have been thrown out and about at those fights as well.

We can all agree that smoking is not healthy, we can all agree that drinking is not healthy. But I can smoke a pack of cigarettes and still be
able to drive a car around without killing anyone, not so with alcohol. Sure smokers suffer from various illnesses more so than other people,
but they are AN ELEVATED RISK group. Not every smoker will die from lung cancer or such. There are a lot of things that cause a lot of illnesses,
all of which are not yet known. Smoking has been made out to be a huge demon

I used to smoke. I quit while I was ill with a stomach flu, I lived in the bathroom for a week, lost 10% of my body weight and just didn’t want to
go out for a smoke at that time. So I hadn’t been smoking for a week and figure what the hell, I’ll just see if I have the resolve to quit while I’m
at it. But if I haden’t gotten sick I would propably still be smoking.

I have never done anything stupid under the effects of nicotine. Sure I have smoked some more but I have never done some outrageous,
really dumb stuff while smoking. Being smashed out of my head, sure. Done lot’s of stupid things while being drunk. Yet somehow people
see smoking as the more dangerous and harmful of the 2. I have never seen anyone get angry or jealous after smoking a cigarette, seen
plenty of people pick fights after a couple of beers.

There is still an aspect to this story that speaks in favor of smoking against alcohol. I mentioned my father earlier and as I told he was an
alcoholic, deniability and all. A few years ago he decided to get drunk off his ass and while he was drunk propably hit upon a reason
(yet again) why his life was so bad and nobody liked him, a typical drinkers depression. So he took a gun to his head and pulled the trigger.
His blood alcohol level at the autopsy was recorded at 0.29 measured from his eye. I belive he would never have done it sober. Or if he
was smoking.

I’m not saying smoking is good but I’m saying it has far less severe consequnces on the people around you than drinking has. I didn’t
bring home any friends from school from grade 6 onward because I never knew in which condition my father would be when I opened
the fron door and I didn’t want to risk it. Never had the same problem with my mothers smoking. Sure she might smell bad but so do
sewer workers or people who have way too much perfume. Her breath might smell but so will anyones who drinks coffee.

Do both, do niether, do one hate the other. There is no 100% right way. Live in peace with those closest to you and try to respect others
and we should en up fine.

Just my 2 cents.

I never complained, though. In fact, I was encouraging them to keep at it!

I was surprised that though the threat level to smoker’s rights was RED, the smokers weren’t putting up a fight. They were all just going along with everyone else who was saying it was evil and bad, not fighting for their workplace smoking rights which were then taken away.

Then everyone had to smoke outside, and I stopped suffering from most SHS; but now we all suffer from the whims of control freaks.

I dare you to find one documented example where this has happened, and
SHS was proven to be the only possible factor involved … I double dog
dare ya …

Yes, I know .. i’m just trolling now.
It’s hard to resist, since they use the exact same
methodology as RIAA lawyers it’s kind of like
‘practice’ … i’ll stop now .

Like perfume can, right ?

It’s like a cut and paste parade

All the anecdotes and NO EVIDENCE.

” I am fine so long as I don’t have to breathe it/smell it. How would you like it if I carried around a vile of nasty smelly perfume ”

Happens all the time.
since it’s not harmful, just annoying, there’s nothing to be done about it.
Like SHS. It’s smelly but not harmful. Nothing can make a lie true, not even
law.

” Your right to breath dirty air does not trump my right to breath clean air. ”

We need to get rid of cars, trucks, buses, factories, farms etc .. since the
contaminates from those sources far outweigh the contaminates of a
puff of pew.

” Let me guess; Dreddsnik is NOT a parent, right? If you are, then I have to wonder… ”

Parent of 2.

” I’m betting you wouldn’t at all mind smoking around your baby or blowing smoke rings in their tiny little face every chance you get. ”

right, cuz that’s exactly the same as what we are discussing

If your dad did that to you no wonder you have a problem.
Seek professional help.
Imposing your views by force on others will not heal your pain, no
matter how bad you want it to.

” There is simply no getting around the fact that smoking is a disease much like alcoholism is. ”

Not trying to, that’s not the isse at hand.
The issue is the falsehood of SHS.

” I feel sorry for all the people out there like yourself who cannot admit they have a problem, ”

Self pity is a pole of cowardice. As I said,seek professional help.

” always finding ways to rationalize their behavior, ”

Yes that’s where you and religious fundamentalist ARE very similar.
Rationalizing using force of law to make others confirm to viewpoints
they can’t prove by any means other than picking and choosing
what they need from a ‘magic’ book, or in this case, fake science.

” Just don’t expect any of your crazy rationalizations to work on me because I already know better and make sure you don’t light up around me, otherwise there will be trouble.”

I don’t expect anything rational to convince you, trust me .
Please let me know when I am about to light up near you.
I love trouble
Please, punch and kick me all you want, I guarantee I won’t do
anything to stop you. I know full well that when fact and reason
don’t convince your ‘kind’ that you will resort to violence.
That’s what zealots do. When reason fails them, they go to name
calling, when that fails, they use violence.

Please, be as violent with me as you wish

That’s what lawyers are for

I am fine so long as I don’t have to breathe it/smell it. How would you like it if I carried around a vile of nasty smelly perfume (skunk flavoured say) and sprayed in in your face every time you smoked? Would that be fair?

Since you’re a smoker by choice and don’t believe anything anyone says about second hand smoke, I’m betting you wouldn’t at all mind smoking around your baby or blowing smoke rings in their tiny little face every chance you get. After all, it’s not doing any harm, right? Plus it’s so funny to watch them make screwed up faces and cough in that cute little high pitched way.

Like I said in another comment elsewhere, my dad has been addicted all of his life and his father, whom was also a heavy smoker, died from lung cancer just a few years ago. Growing up around my dad was NOT fun in the slightest. I had asthma up until a few years after moving out on my own and am more prone to lung problems like bronchitis and pneumonia (hardly any of the penicillin type medications work for me anymore). My mom has had smokers cough for years even though she has never smoked a single cigarette in her entire life. There are always ash trays full of butts everywhere and the ceiling of their house is yellowed from tar and who knows what other chemicals. He’s tried to quit many times, primarily for financial reasons, but always fails. My mother is actually doing a bit better now that she no longer allows him to light up inside the house. I guarantee you that when my dad’s time is up, it WILL be because of lung cancer just like his father.

There is simply no getting around the fact that smoking is a disease much like alcoholism is. I feel sorry for all the people out there like yourself who cannot admit they have a problem, always finding ways to rationalize their behavior, always proclaiming it’s not harming anyone, always failing to see the bigger picture. Sadly that is very typical behavior for one who is addicted to ANY substance, as I’m sure Jon will attest to. I’m pro-freedom so go ahead and keep on smoking. Just don’t expect any of your crazy rationalizations to work on me because I already know better and make sure you don’t light up around me, otherwise there will be trouble.

true

” Do the research afterward and you’ll realize they are pretty truthful. ”

Also true.

” Almost every single bit of evidence against SHS comes from something like 2 sources. Both of which are either extremely questionable in their integrity or have been grossly miss-quoted to suit the anti-smokers. ”

Absolutely true.

” I hate SHS. I cant stand it. But I also don’t think anyone has the right to tell others how to live their lives. ”

That’s real honesty.

My wife smokes cigarettes.
I switched to a pipe 6 years ago.
Her cigs smell like ass to me now, I never noticed it
at the time, but the difference in smell from pipe tobacco
to cig tobacco is as dramatic is cigs to cigars.

If honesty were to rule the day, the real reason for this is
people don’t like the smell. I can’t disagree.
But a bad smell should never trump individual rights.
Taking away the right of a business owner to choose
whether or not to allow smoking in their establishment is
absolute bullshit. It’s even worse that fake ‘evidence’ is used
to take this right away from them.

I hate SHS. I cant stand it. But I also don’t think anyone has the right to tell others how to live their lives.