If 3,000 people paid $1 a month …
… p2pnet would stay online.
Actually, it would be a few cents more than that, what with CC fees. But you get the idea …
I’ve just put p2pnet up for sale. I started it to share music – MIDI, not mp3, files — but ended up becoming a kind of online pamphleteer, joining the men and women (and nutcases 
) who, mainly in the 18th and 19th centuries, saw injustices and did their best to try bring them to public attention.
They did this by publishing pamphlets, paying print costs out of their own pockets, unless they were lucky enough to find patrons.
I still have patrons – my advertisers – but my main benefactor has had to drop out to focus all his financial resources on his own business.
My wife, Liz, and I were talking about what’s happening and, “music is like diamonds,” she said. “Diamonds aren’t rare, but they’re controlled at the source.”
The major labels used to control music at the source as well, creating false scarcity.
And then along came the net.
Diamonds can’t be digitised but music can, and that 21st digital century reality has been responsible for busting cartel dominance. It’s also the primary reason Vivendi Universal, EMI, Warner Music and Sony Music have been trying so desperately to gain control of online distribution.
First, they used mainstream print and electronic press outlet to present subpoenas as court cases in which innocent men women and children were pilloried under mainstream media headlines without ever having been near a court, judge or jury.
That didn’t work and now they’re trying to compel governments to act as corporate agencies with taxpayers footing the bill, and ISPs working as industry copyright enforcers, paid for by the ISPs’.
Certain similarities
On p2pnet, among many other issues, I’ve repeatedly emphasised the way in which Vivendi Universal, EMI, Warner Music and Sony Music have been screwing both their contracted parties and their own customers and very recently, I co-founded a2f2a.com with UK artist Billy Bragg.
‘Artists need to be paid, and fans want to pay them’ as the bottom line” is our main point, and my present difficulties got me to thinking there’s a certain similarity between me and artists.
We both need patrons to keep on doing what we do.
“Patronage is the support, encouragement, privilege, or financial aid that an organization or individual bestows to another,” says the Wikipedia, and Crosbie Fitch, creator of the 1ptu system, first woke me up to the possibilities.
For me, his project “epitomises what the net is supposed to be all about,” I wrote, continuing »»»
Reasonable people behaving reasonably to the benefit of everyone, instead of just a few.
What it boils down to is this: under the 1p2u concept, readers aren’t customers: they’re patrons in much the same way that in the old days, artists, writers, musicians and other creators survived when someone recognized the value of their works and decided to provide them with resources of various kinds, including money, so they could continue to create to the comfort of society as a whole.
In my case, my readers become my publishers, which I think is pretty cool. If they like what I produce, they pay me to write more. If they don’t, they don’t.
Simple.
Unfortunately, Crosbie’s 12pu project is still very much in Alpha development and therefore can’t be much help to me. But I still think it’s a great idea and could benefit anyone in the arts.
Meanwhile, and coincidentally, I promise you, as I was putting this together, my wife posted a Reader’s Write in which she says »»»
Since Jon told me yesterday about our changed circumstances we have been doing a lot of thinking and talking. I don`t know about the rest of you people but sometimes my brain just engages in a whole range of free-associations. I haven`t had time to tie them together and smooth them out but here they are:
- one of the thoughts which ran through my head was: in a weird analogy Jon is experiencing the worst nightmare of a Billy Bragg or of any other musician he supplies a cultural product and, right now, doesn`t know whether he is going to get paid.
- to paraphrase Chris Ovenden (http://www.p2pnet.net/story/24704) perhaps the time has come to see if p2pnet has enough value to give it a price. By that I mean a price to its users. I believe Jon`s advertisers value it.
- Jon says above he is looking to sell the site: a notable story here on Vancouver Island was the recent employee buy-out of the Harmac Mill in Nanaimo. The employees, along with some investors, now own and operate the mill. In the case of p2pnet, if 3000 of the visitors to the site paid $1 per month that money would take care of our sudden shortfall.
Just some ramblings
Liz Newton
p2pnet isn’t a business. It’s a commitment. If it has value for you, please think about making a contribution to help me keep it online. Cheers! And thanks : )
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win ~ Mahatma Gandhi
November, 2009
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November 21st, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Yes, I wish I was further ahead in development than I am. So, in the interim I can only point to such sites as Kickstarter.com or spot.us. They’re not as sophisticated as the sort of thing I’m working towards, but they can support the same fundamental transaction, i.e. the exchange of intellectual work for money (instead of the sale of copies at monopoly enforced prices).
November 21st, 2009 at 4:26 pm
As I have also written on a2f2a… I would be more than willing to pay $1 per month â but to do so, you really have to advertise that you need people to do that and to make the process as simple and straightforward as possible! For example â set up a PayPal subscription system. Also (and I hate to say this) you need to offer subscribers that little bit extra â why would people pay for news when thay can get it elsewhere for free?
November 21st, 2009 at 4:26 pm
I would (and can) gladly pay $15/year to keep the site up & available – perhaps a poll to see if enough other folks feel the same is in order?
November 21st, 2009 at 4:50 pm
And unfortunately your paypal link is not working. (Well from this page at least)
November 21st, 2009 at 4:57 pm
@ Tel: Strange. It’s working for me, but I know whatit might be — hang on …
Cheers!
November 21st, 2009 at 5:18 pm
@ Tel:
Fixed. Thanks for telling me.
November 21st, 2009 at 5:21 pm
@ Rabbit80:
You can’t get what you get here anywhere else. And as my wife says, “perhaps the time has come to see if p2pnet has enough value to give it a price”.
Cheers!
November 21st, 2009 at 7:03 pm
“You canât get what you get here anywhere else.”
Explain/elaborate.
ty.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:18 pm
there is very few sites on the internet with information and news that is provided here.
1 buck a month is fare.
but if your site is sold, try to get a million or so Jon.
November 21st, 2009 at 9:38 pm
Hi Jon,
I love this site, and visit on a daily basis, and I am totally willing to pay a monthly fee to help keep it online.
Is there a way for you to put on a poll on here to see if enough people are willing to pay? It will show everyone, and I would be extremely surprised to see a low number. I believe the 3000+ needed would show up on the poll pretty quick.
Just a suggestion to see the interest.
Cheers
November 21st, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Proof of concept Jon.
Keep a paypal donation button available.
Keep a short explanation of why it’s needed always visible.
It’s basically the same thing we tell the artists to keep available, so fans can
directly pay them. Regular readers here understand and it’s a way for all of us to
prove as a team that alternate methods WORK. Let’s show them we’re not dreamers
and one CAN get paid if the content is worthwhile.
We’ve been saying it’s true for years, now it’s time for US to prove it.
Let’s go for at least 2 bucks a person folks. P2Pers, let’s show the naysayers how it works.
What say you ?
November 21st, 2009 at 11:06 pm
@ Dredd:
I did that for a long time. Nada. And so far, nada.
I’m like public radio, but without the volunteer fund-raisers.
Cheers!
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:44 am
I understand why you need $3,000 a month to live. But I don’t think blogging is a job. If you disagree and you can point to bloggers who make a living at it, ask them how they monetise it. I also don’t see how giving up the blog will solve your money problems. Wherever you’re going to get your next income from, just do it; and blog as a hobby.
November 22nd, 2009 at 7:17 am
Publish your stats + business plan -> Get evaluated -> Let us buy shares. Go public!
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:03 am
Jon:
Sorry to see this, at least sorta.
What I mean by that is: much as nobody wants to mention it, since Billy Bragg showed up, and especially since a2f2a started, you’ve become relatively “soft” on the corporate copyright-cartels. Bragg, Gregg, and Lily Allen may — for whatever reason — actually sound like they’re worth bringing to the table, but they’re really not.
Bragg’s just using the p2p/copyright-skeptic folks as a “bargaining chip” against the labels, and I, for one, knew it right from when he told us he *had* to support Mandelson’s 3-strikes idiocy because if he took any other position, he’d be “totally ostracized” by the labels.
Sorry to say this, Jon, but I don’t see how you’ll find many people willing to donate to p2pnet, because, to many people on *both* sides of the p2p/copyright issue, you’re collaborating with “the enemy”:
1. Bragg, Gregg, Lily and whoever else over on a2f2a don’t understand anything about p2p, the history of copyright, or why any aspect of culture should remain non-’monetized’. I’ve read enough over at a2f2a to understand that they don’t WANT to understand, either. They just want the money, and they don’t give a damn if people get bull-dozed in the process.
Why do you think there are so few of “their” side participating over there, Jon? They’ll ALWAYS see p2p, copyright-reform, hell, the “public domain” itself as a sword over their necks, potentially threatening to deprive them of income. (Yes, I still remember Sam’s crap about how expiration of copyright would “take” from his daughter.)
2. On other other side, you’ve built your ENTIRE brand identity since 2002 by being an advocate for the p2p community, copyright-skeptics, public domain advocates, corporate watchdogs, digital freedom, etc. etc, who then mysteriously becomes best pals with a board-member of an organization which voted to support throttling legislation even the BRITISH GOVERNMENT ITSELF says won’t possibly work.
I wouldn’t be surprised if, to *some* people, p2pnet looks like Kazaa at this point.
Because Y’know what? Kazaa’s whole purpose for existing is supposedly p2p file-sharing, but as you’ve so helpfully demonstrated and publicized over several years, Kazaa is *really* a corporate honeyput, effectively collaborating with the corporate cartels’ “sue ‘em all” campaign.
So no matter *how* many p2p apps you advertise, discerning people on *any* side of the debate can’t help but look at p2pnet and go “hey wait, isn’t he also in bed with Bragg and Indiana Gregg, over on a2f2a?”
Ain’t gonna work, Jon: Pick a side.
Remember how you used to tell me that “industry” folks over on the “Pho” list used to say your life would become “easier” if you changed your tune on p2p/copyright/corpate bullying?
Well along comes a2f2a (which Bragg is now going to be bankrolling), and p2pnet is just about dead.
Can’t say *some* of us didn’t warn you.
Cheers, Jon, and best of luck to Liz and Emma — you’re all going to need it.
On another note, paywalls are bullshit, unless you have original content. Since most of p2pnet’s stories are also reported over on http://www.techdirt.com, Torrentfreak, Zeropaid, and — yes — even http://www.boycottriaa.com (on occasion), p2pnet really isn’t the critical link it once was.
(Plus, ever since Bragg showed up, the smell of overcooked corporate bacon is overwhelming.)
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:21 am
Here are some ideas:
Add donor (contributor-sponsor) pages to p2pnet.
Use a two tier system to identify the sponsors:
a. Simple names sponsors.
b. Ad sponsors. These would have a small (1/2 or one inch height by 1/2 screen width) sponsor supplied advertisement linked (to donor web site) image. This type of sponsor would donate more or pay a price. Their business should relate to music.
Classify Ad sponsors by the type (Performers available by are, songwriters/songs, instrument musicians, bands, CD sales, etc.)
If properly done this may develop into a popular mart for people in the music business that share the it-is-ok-to-share or it-is-ok-to-perform-in-public philosophy and need to sell a product.
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:24 am
The above idea has a good chance or working precisely because p2pnet already has an audience and the confidence of that audience.
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:31 am
On the post above from Henry Emrich, he’s a turn and turn again kind of guy who started off as an RIAA supporter and vicious p2pnet hater, but changed his mind and became born again. Now, only he knows where he’s coming from, or what reverted him to character.
“Well along comes a2f2a (which Bragg is now going to be bankrolling), and p2pnet is just about dead.”
He’s talking about a2f2a.com, something I started with Billy Bragg because we both believe artists need to be paid, and fans want to pay them. And if meeting the hosting cost is bankrolling, Yup. But that’s it, and that’s all of it. I’m not being paid, and I don’t expect to be. I’m in it because it’s something I believe in and I’ll continue to do everything I can to make it work whether p2pnet survives or not.
Why am I leaving Henry’s garbage online? Because it’s an example of stuff I get all the time, and it’s something the labels and studios dearly love to see. They couldn’t have done it better themselves.
So, Henry, on behalf of Hollywood and Big Music, thanks a lot. Good job.
I’m sorry for you.
Cheers!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:43 am
@ RW: “Here are some ideas”.
As Rafael says they are good and I’ll implement them. But right now, my focus is on finding a way to keep p2pnet going, and almost six weeks is a long time.
Selling is an absolute last resort, and I wouldn’t let the site go to anyone I thought would misuse it.
Cheers!
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:23 pm
How about putting a PayPal donate button on the site that is ALWAYS visible (use frames or DHTML) – alongside a progress bar type of affair that shows how much cash you have raised for the month – and an explanation of why it is there and how much you need to keep afloat?
November 22nd, 2009 at 4:05 pm
@Rabbit80.
Good ideas.
Cheers! And thanks …
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:32 pm
I think the progress bar thing is a good idea, too. One of the anti-cult blogs (WhyWeProtest) used to have something like this (may still have, I don’t know) to be able to keep running their website, and it seemed to be effective in reminding people that the site had expenses that had to be met.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:56 am
@Jon
Didn’t recall Henry starting out as a rabid RIAA guy, I must have either been asleep at the switch or just gone senile in not remembering that. I think he was way too hard on you, you’ve come out clearly in opposition to three strikes, and I recall you have asked for a clarification from FAC on that, as have I. If he doesn’t like Billy Bragg’s ideas, he is free to post to a2f2a, as Crosbie does, rather than just being negative about the whole idea.
“Braggâs just using the p2p/copyright-skeptic folks as a âbargaining chipâ against the labels”
Even if Henry was right on that, it still doesn’t invalidate a2f2a, the concept of which is to exchange ideas with the artists. If in the end the artists won’t listen, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth making the attempt.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:31 am
The only thing I’ve got against af2fa is the dark colour scheme*, but yes irrespective of the perspectives and principles of the two founders, it’s a site for everyone on both sides of the mosh pit to get their oar in, especially with respect to continuing the trade of art and money between artists and their fans.
* wrt ergonomics/usability, but it is a tad gloomy.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:23 pm
I just clicked the PayPal donate button…
A couple of points -
1) I have no idea what the exchange rate is… is it not possible to donate in my own currency?
2) There needs to be an option to donate / pay monthly – is this possible?
The ONLY way this will work is if there is no effort required on the users part!
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:11 pm
Maybe you see Slyck as your competition but they have some good ad revenue ideas you might want to try!
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Another thing that might be useful is to keep a monthly and/or yearly $ progress bar up & visible – one of the things I like about isohunt.com is their little box saying how much has been donated each day. It would be even cooler if their daily costs were visible as well.
I think there are lots of folks who don’t want to make a commitment to donating regularly, but would kick in some bucks if they see that you’re short for the month or year. In fact there are probably folks who would do that even if they already donate regularly.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:46 pm
Slyck might have been competition years ago, but its news section has been virtually dead for a long time. Slyck makes it’s money by “recommending” companies that it personally profits from, either by running ads, receiving signup referrals, or both. Kind of sleazy to be offering what appear to be unbiased reviews but are in fact paid endorsements.
To Slyck’s credit, they’re not known to censor comments that criticize, compare or suggest alternatives to a paying advertiser, unlike a certain other P2P news site.
Henry Emrich seems like a typical contrarian, the type that Usenet overflows with, opinionated people who are often quick to switch sides on an issue for the purpose of remaining annoying to the greatest number of readers, which is the whole point of their online existence. Their positions on issues is by design whatever gets the most heated reactions from the widest possible audience.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Jon you could always set yourself up as a paypal merchant with a voluntary monthly subscription model. Ask people if they wish to subscribe and every month the donaters will be automatically charged for whatever amount they decide to pay. Or just one time donation should be an option of course. Keep the paypal button on ALL pages build it into the templates I recall having trouble finding it months ago when you asked your readers for help. I was happy to help then, and with some more original content im sure many would be happy to help now.
Mr Brag stood up to the media and said he agreed with filesharing and thats great I respect him for it. It does seem p2pnet has less to read and even less original content so its tough because on the one hand your asking readers to help and on the other your not giving them much reason to help. IMHO It appears Jon may be too pre-occupied af2fa.com . Am I asking too much? is Jon asking too much? I dont have the answers only an opinion.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:00 pm
@ Lando:
I’m asking friends for help. If they respond, it’ll make things easier for me. If not, I’ll still do my best to keep p2pnet going. I’ll know where it’s at by the end of December – or perhaps before.
“It does seem p2pnet has less to read and even less original content so its tough because on the one hand your asking readers to help and on the other your not giving them much reason to help.”
I do the best I can, Lando, as always. And that’s all I can do.
Cheers!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:22 pm
@Jon
I’ll gladly contribute to a subscription – but it needs to be an automatic service – and I need to know exactly how much I am paying! Finances are tight at the moment – but a regular payment going out at the start of each month would be managable. I’m sure I am not the only one that thinks that way!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:31 pm
@ Rabbit80:
If you want to contribute, obviously, the amount is up to you. And you can easily authorise monthy payments. But seriously, m8, if you don’t have much to spare, don’t even think about it. I know you wish me well, and that’s as good as money.
Cheers!
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:31 pm
@ R. OâQuinn:
“one of the things I like about isohunt.com is their little box saying how much has been donated each day.” I’d never noticed that. Good one.
“It would be even cooler if their daily costs were visible as well.”
If it gets to the point where p2pnet is 100% funded by users, Yes.
Cheers!
November 24th, 2009 at 5:03 am
I put some $’s where my mouth is and have gladly donated.
I think I put what I wanted to say in the paypal info, keep up the good work Jon, we need p2pnet or we wouldn’t have the opportunity we have with a2f2a.
November 24th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
I’m still waiting for the 8th post to be replied to.
November 24th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
@ RW “I’m still waiting …”
I hope you weren’t holding your breath
http://www.p2pnet.net/story/31550.
Other than that, the many posts on, with and about RIAA victims; stories on the manner in which the entertainment industry is corrupting children in their classrooms; unique p2pnet interviews with influential and interesting people; probes into advertising practices (the only site to do this); and so on.
Cheers!
November 24th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
“probes into advertising practices (the only site to do this)”
This is the part that interests me.
How much would you need per month with NO commercial advertisers?
(people like blubster and other buds aside)
November 24th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
@ RW: Blubster? Pablo had to pull out long ago. Otherwise, if buds = friends, they’re all buds here.
Cheers!
November 24th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
yes, I know about Pablo (obviously), but you have another bud you put here due to friendship (but this wasn’t the point).
However, if you are going to pull the card that all the advertisers here are your buds and not answer the question, then you lost me, both as a user and someone who you quoted/storied often enough here.
You played your cards to me just now. I didn’t like what I saw.
I won’t be back. I have no use for you and you have no use for me. Ciao and fuck you.
November 24th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
@ RW CIAO:
Ciao.
November 24th, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Jon,
Ciao.
Thanks for NOT answering the question and taking the easy way out of that question.
You shouldn’t be singing about “advertising practices” when you and your very own paid ads (like treksavvy) are playing hype for money.
Hope others see this and are not blind.
Never thought I’d say this, but, I’ll be glad if you shut down in Dec. or sell out to the likes to tekshavy (as you are asking for).
Come Dec, and if you are still up by then, I’ll be paying attention to who you are shilling for, and make people aware of who you are shilling for.
Regards,
Deadpool
(AKA TSI Gabriel)
November 25th, 2009 at 7:02 am
“To Slyckâs credit, theyâre not known to censor comments that criticize, compare or suggest alternatives to a paying advertiser, unlike a certain other P2P news site. ”
I have to say this is not the case at all and one of the reasons I no longer post over at Slycks, I received an irate pm from Tom regarding some posts I had made and it became clear the site wasnt as open and honest as they pretend, and I didnt use foul language at any time to make my points.