We need your help for an online poll !
p2pnet news view | P2P | Music:- We’d like to hijack you for a couple of minutes to complete an extended poll run by David Lessard on a2f2a.com, a site recently started by music fans and musicians to put the two communities together to their mutual advantage.
‘Start your own revolution!” is its slogan. “Cut out the middleman!” Actually it should have been ‘middlemen’. And you know who they are.
Just being on a2f2a.com “means being part of the solution, and while it may seem intractable at times, we’ve kept a civil discussion going for several months, which is an accomplishment in itself,” said David, summing up the results of his survey.
“It shows a commitment to the issue and that we all do want to find solutions.”
He went on, “One step in that is to form a consensus on a statement, so that we have a position going forward into more public venues and can join the larger debate as a group.
“Since there was so much good discussion in this thread about possible statements but no way to find out if we had a consensus, I created a survey to get some hard numbers on the issue.”
You’ll find the results here.
Now it’s your turn.
If you’re reading this, it’s a pretty sure bet you’re among those who believe musicians should be paid for their work, and fans actively want to help make that happen.
As I write this, with the UK as the focal point, Vivendi Universal, EMI, Warner Music and Sony Music, and Disney, News Corp, Time Warner, Viacom, NBC Universal and Sony Pictures are at the end of the line, betting everything they have they can regain control of ‘consumers’ through ACTA, the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement.
If it’s ever formulated as law around the world, “every man, woman and child on the planet will in one stroke lose their freedom of speech to fall under the thrall of companies and politicians who answer only to one small feral group, corporate shareholders,” I said here.
On top of that, musicians will continue to be totally dominated by the corporate music industry, as they’ve been for decades.
At the moment, all the running is being made by the cartels and musicians who side with them. But for the first time in history, thanks to the net, the people now have a voice and we want to get them into the discussion.
Now it’s time to show the entertainment cartels, and their bought-and-paid-for politicians, we, and not they, are in charge.
A consensus statement is vital and data from across the board is needed to create it.
Please take the time to complete it, and please tell everyone you know on every forum and site you visit to do the same.
Cheers! And thanks …
Jon Newton – p2pnet
..… and identi.ca
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win ~ Mahatma Gandhi
January, 2010
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January 14th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
Thanks to everyone who has participated in the poll so far.
One of the comments on the poll was: “This seems to be slanted. There are far more options that state that the copyright should be abolished, that file sharing should be legal, than there are about protecting the rights of the creator.”
Yes, I’m afraid it is. Most of the statements were gleaned from the discussion in a a2f2a thread (thanks to everyone for their ideas). I added most of the statements about protecting the rights of the creator, but it is still lopsided. If anyone has any suggestions for statements about that “side,” please respond and I can add them in (or in the next version). I’m happy for any other comments or critiques about the poll.
January 14th, 2010 at 6:54 pm
For questions in regards to the “ARTIST”, why not check out Geist’s site for what the Artists sent in for the Canadian copyright debate? p2pnet might have it as well, ask Jon.
Its also on the Gov site.
Also check out p2pnet for the “industry” filing and what they want which was the gov submission in PDF format and not released in text or “as is” like everything else was. This submission got special treatment and viewable only by those who reg’d their Email to see it. p2pnet carries a copy in full.
Great wealth of info there in terms of what the artist wants, a lobby group for artists, collection agencies for artists and some by artists themselves.
All of which (amazingly enough) don’t necessarily agree with each other.
January 14th, 2010 at 7:26 pm
I put a request for input on the Pho list and two people (so far) replied.
One said: “Based solely on your pitch to pho, it seems you might be subject to sampling error. Fwiw, I’m fully on the side of radical reduction if not outright elimination of IP.”
Another said: “Thanks for the ’survey,’ Jon. Your ability to push poll by using language and format to precipitate the results you desire rivals the best (worst?) of ‘em in politics. Please try again.”
To the first I said, “Thanks. You may be right. Neither David (who built the original survey) nor myself are up on these things” and quoted his Reader’s Write above.
To the second person, ” ‘push poll’,” I said, adding truthfully: “I haven’t seen that phrase before, but I think I understand what it means.
“I frequently see blatantly skewed ’surveys’ from the corporate record labels and movie studios and their associated ‘trade’ organisations, purpose-built to support whatever it is they’re trying to promote. That kind of thing, do you mean? But our poll isn’t modelled on those. We’re amateurs looking for genuine data, not professionals trying to ‘push’ spurious findings to slant things our way.”
Cheers!
January 14th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Let’s just hope that Frank Lutz did not have a hand in creating this poll.
January 14th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
FYI
@ 4:17 PM Pacific, we’d received 81 responses, mostly from professional musicians which is, to me, interesting in and of itself.
Cheers!
January 14th, 2010 at 11:47 pm
This poll is subject to sample error. It’s not a random sample, sadly, so the results won’t be statistically verifiable. Our sample is readers of p2pnet and other interested parties and the results will be interpreted with our sample in mind; we can’t make conclusions about what “everyone” thinks.
Because of the design of the poll, we are unable to manipulate the statistics, for good or bad. All we can do is present the raw results – a percentage of people that agreed with the statement. This is just an honest opinion poll. We’re trying to see where things stand.
This poll wasn’t made to mislead anyone or as a “push poll.” I’m afraid I’m not sophisticated enough to to write something like that. If anyone has Frank Lutz’s phone number, let me know and we can see if he’ll help us next time
January 15th, 2010 at 2:28 am
Thanks for the poll, but there are a few words that should have been, IMHO, avoided.
“Compensation” : To speak of “compensation for authors” in connection with copyright carries the assumptions that (1) copyright exists for the sake of authors and (2) whenever we read something, we take on a debt to the author which we must then repay. The first assumption is simply false, and the second is outrageous.
Consumer : the term “consumer,” when used to refer to computer users, is loaded with assumptions we should reject. Playing a digital recording, or running a program, does not consume it.
The terms “producer” and “consumer” come from economic theory, and bring with them its narrow prespective and misguided assumptions. They tend to warp your thinking.
In addition, describing the users of software as “consumers” presumes a narrow role for them: it regards them as cattle that passively graze on what others make available to them.
This kind of thinking leads to travesties like the CBDTPA “Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act” which would require copying restriction facilities in every digital device. If all the users do is “consume,” then why should they mind?
The shallow economic conception of users as “consumers” tends to go hand in hand with the idea that published works are mere “content.”
To describe people who are not limited to passive use of works, we suggest terms such as “individuals” and “citizens”.
Copied from http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html , more information on that page.
January 15th, 2010 at 4:38 am
On the first question, I have to wonder what exactly constitutes being classified a “professional” in the performance arts? Obviously, those fortunate enough to make a decent living at it qualify, but what about all the people who must rely on their day-jobs to pay the bills while they wait ( … and wait … and wait) for that elusive phone call? Do semi-professionals, aspiring hopefuls, and starving artists count?
I have a hard time answering many of these questions in a yes/no fashion, as either choice often does not accurately reflect my thoughts and beliefs.
Jumping to the last question, the word “copyright” is thrown around a lot. I support the concept of copyright, as it existed in its original form, a 14 year period (maximum) of government protection against commercial counterfeiters, but not the ever-expanding restrictions on personal freedom that copyright has evolved into today, such as the absurdity of technically breaking the law whenever singing a certain popular 120-year-old song at a birthday party. There is a very wide (and largely undefined) overlap between copyright and “fair use” but the content industry is always lobbying the government to weaken or eliminate fair-use conditions.
Then there’s the fact that it can be legal to rip songs (for personal use) from a $15 12cm plastic disk called a CD but a criminal offense to rip those same songs from a $15 12cm plastic disk called a DVD.
Frank Luntz’s phone number is listed on his website at http://www.theworddoctors.com/expertise.html
“In the political arena, our CEO, Dr. Frank Luntz, is known for helping change the public vocabulary – he transformed the “estate tax” into the “the death tax,” moved the public debate from “school vouchers” to “opportunity scholarships,” and re-cast “drilling for oil” as “exploring for energy.” He is the researcher behind one of the most quoted survey of the last 20 years …”
Imagine that, a professional pollster able to “change the public vocabulary” – now that’s got to be some heavy-duty “push” polling!
January 15th, 2010 at 8:07 am
@Readers’s Write, wow! All excellent points I would have been proud to have made myself.
The survey is a daunting hodge-podge of questions of varying quality – to put it mildly. Many are highly loaded with controversial assumptions and implications. Heaven knows what highly fallacious inferences will be drawn from the results.
January 15th, 2010 at 8:38 am
@ Crosby: “Heaven knows what highly fallacious inferences will be drawn from the results.”
Well, you’re off to a good start, pushing strongly in one direction. But as David says above, “This is just an honest opinion poll. We’re trying to see where things stand.”
David also says: “This poll wasn’t made to mislead anyone or as a ‘push poll.’ I’m afraid I’m not sophisticated enough to to write something like that.” That goes for me as well.
This might be described as a straw poll (another phrase I hadn’t heard of before) and here’s part of what the Wikipedia says of them: “impromptu straw polls often are taken to see if there is enough support for an idea to devote more … time to it”. I’d say that sums it up for me.
I asked someone who analyses data for a living what s/he thought about ours. Answer: ‘As something to be offered as statistically relevant, it’s a failure. As a means of loosely gathering opinions about how a particular group of people feel about things, it’s fine.”
Meanwhile, as I write this (started 3:15 am Pacific, finish 3:44) we’ve had 111 responses out of 313 views, mostly from ‘professional’ musicians.
I know, I know … what’s a professional musician?
Cheers!
January 15th, 2010 at 9:18 am
Best if you stick to writing slanted posts in P2PNet Jon. You are certainly no good at surveys.
January 15th, 2010 at 9:28 am
Jon, keep on doing what you’re doing. You have a place. The guy above doesn’t
January 15th, 2010 at 10:38 am
I do enjoy how people criticize while not having the nuts to publish their name.
Yes, there certainly is a slight slant to the poll, which is not to be unexpected given the origin of it. Jon et al have made no claims to be totally fair and impartial. They try hard, far harder than I did, to be professional about it but after so long the bitterness & cynicism takes hold.
My only criticism – that’s a lot of words and no pictures. As a bass player, I … Ooo — shiny object.
January 15th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Pass, too formal for me, I dont know about the rest of these cats
January 15th, 2010 at 7:36 pm
What happened to the logo submissions? Unless I’m blind, that looks like the same plain logo that a2f2a has had from the start.
January 15th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
@ RW: Logo
We put it on hold while we get a few non-related things sorted out.
Cheers!
January 15th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
“I do enjoy how people criticize while not having the nuts to publish their name.”
Yaaaawwwnnnn
January 16th, 2010 at 9:42 am
^^ That’s your name? heh
Cheers!
January 16th, 2010 at 11:22 pm
Jon why feed the trolls ?
You and I both know those who come here being rude work for companies like media defender (as show by their own emails lest you folks forget).
January 16th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
@ Quartz:
I just thought Yaaaawwwnnnn was a strange name.
Cheers!
January 17th, 2010 at 3:21 am
@Quartz
Which troll?
Joe McGuire above trolling anons and wanting their names? Or the Anon yawing at guy who needs to know who you are and why you are?
BTW, is Quartz your real name? Funny name to give a person.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:13 am
No Quartz is not my real name and if your uncomfortable with putting your name on a survey then simply dont (I didnt see any option for adding my name real or otherwise btw so I,m not sure what survey you where taking part in), I am assuming your an adult and are aware of the usage of “nicknames” on the internet that allow for folks to free themselves of the shackles of being simple joe soap.
There is nothing to be scared of.