Bradley Manning – A Turn For The Worse
p2pnet view P2P | Freedom | Politics:- The following was contained in an e-mail sent to Jon by FireDogLake.com, “an online news site featuring original reporting and commentary”, and forwarded to me. In it, FireDogLake describes an interesting petition they have started, intended to draw some pretty constructive attention to the treatment of Bradley Manning, who, as we know, is the young US soldier who was arrested in May 2010 in Iraq on suspicion of having passed restricted material to the website WikiLeaks.
I’m simply going to post the e-mail contents it in its entirety, as its meaning and purpose are quite clear, and I’m sure FireDogLake wants to spread this around as much as possible. Its links are there for those wanting to know more and/or get involved.
- Devil’s Advocate
Jon,
Tell Quantico to allow official visits to Pfc. Bradley Manning
The isolation of Bradley Manning just took a turn for the worse. Now Quantico Marine Base and the government are breaking their own rules to deny visits to Bradley Manning.
Government officials and Quantico Marine Base have just declared that Congressman Dennis Kucinich and the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture – who have tried to visit Manning for months – would not be considered to be on “official government business.” That means brig authorities could monitor their conversations and possibly use them against Manning in court.
We need to appeal this decision to the leadership at Quantico and the Pentagon, including Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Quantico Base Commander Colonel Daniel J. Choike, and Brig Commander CWO Denise Barnes. If enough of us call out this wrongheaded decision, we can generate pressure in the media to allow official visits with Bradley Manning.
What do Quantico and the Pentagon have to hide? Are they afraid of what Bradley Manning might say about his treatment when the brig cameras are turned off?
For 9 months and counting, Bradley Manning has faced almost complete solitary confinement. He is still forced to strip nude nightly. He is still in maximum custody with an unnecessary “Prevention of Injury” order – far beyond that of any other detainee. He is still cut off from appropriate exercise and other rights afforded prisoners at the brig.
When confronted about Manning’s harsh treatment, President Obama said the Pentagon had reassured him that Manning’s confinement met “basic standards.” If Manning’s conditions meets our “basic standards,” then why is the government going to such great lengths to keep him from meeting with official visitors?
The decision to block official visits to Bradley Manning isn’t just ludicrous. It’s against the rules. Marine rules clearly state that people “conducting official government business, either on behalf of the prisoner or in the interest of justice,” can be allowed “official visits” not subject to monitoring by the brig. That explicitly includes Members of Congress like Rep. Kucinich.
Rep. Kucinich, a member of the House Oversight Committee, has been trying to visit Manning in prison for more than two months. The Congressman repeatedly wrote to Secretary Gates and other military officials requesting a visit to investigate the allegations of torture-like conditions to which Manning has been subjected. And the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture has opened an official investigation into PFC. Manning’s conditions.
If it seems like a stretch to say that a member of the US Congressional Oversight Committee and the United Nations visiting a military prisoner alleging abuse does not constitute ‘official government business,’ that’s because it is. This is one big game of semantics, with the ultimate goal being to keep the public from hearing the truth about Manning’s confinement.
With your help, we will make sure there is nothing secret about the way the US Government is treating Bradley Manning.
Thanks for all you do.
Michael Whitney,
Firedoglake.com
Firedoglake’s community of 350,000 activists is supported by small donations from people like you. Can you chip in to keep us strong?
Devil’s Advocate – p2pnet
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April 14th, 2011 at 12:12 am
Oh no not more of this!
Manning is given unmonitored sessions with his lawyer, so the whole argument that he somehow needs to have an unmonitored session with the one and only Dennis Kucinich so the truth will be exposed is just ridiculous. Any claims of mistreatment could easily be passed along through the attorney.
I think this is the same petition that made false claims about manning before, and it seems that they still haven’t bothered to read any of the statements from his own lawyer. The last one stated he was given something to wear at night he couldn’t hang himself with, so at the very least they are being misleading if not outright lying. Might want to post some sort of disclaimer so we don’t get Jon sued again when he least needs it.
April 14th, 2011 at 7:10 am
OtisI can see you know little of the law, Jons backside is safe in this case as in the first instance he is not making the claims, and in the second instance he is not repeating them with any knowledge of them being wrong or misleading. If we followed your advice on this one I,m pretty sure we would have no news organisations as thats what they do, report the news that in nearly all cases entirely consists of claims and counterclaims.
Why The US wouldwant to block unfettered access to the UN guy is still somewhat of a mystery to me as those with little to hide are usually the first to show so openly and thus put pressure on their adversaries in the public eye, no doubt the game will become clear at some stage as todays secrets are often headlines of the future.
April 14th, 2011 at 9:53 am
” Manning is given unmonitored sessions with his lawyer, so the whole argument that he somehow needs to have an unmonitored session with the one and only Dennis Kucinich so the truth will be exposed is just ridiculous. Any claims of mistreatment could easily be passed along through the attorney. ”
If you and the government say it’s true, well then it must be true. Government officials don’t lie right ?
April 14th, 2011 at 10:55 am
Otis said: “Oh no not more of this!”
I don’t understand the fascination with this guy. There’s over 2 millions peoples in jail in the U.S., why him ?
How many prisoners in the U.S. are in isolation 23 hours a day ?
How many get their conversations with visitors monitored ?
How many are on suicide watch ?
Why the fascination with Manning ? He’s a criminal and he’s in jail. Get over it.
April 14th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
“I don’t understand the fascination with this guy. There’s over 2 millions peoples in jail in the U.S., why him ? ”
Because Bradley Manning is an hero who put himself in danger for his country by smoking out the criminals from the government and the US army.
too bad for all these piece of craps the bushes the Cheneys the yo the gates the jo-bit me and consort because we are coming for them!
All these piece of crap are going to end up in prison for breaking the US law and trampling the US constitution.
TRUST ME! WE WILL!
April 14th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
because this is a very particular case and what happens to this kid foreshadows what will happen to anyone else who tries to make the governments illegal actions more transparent. if over 60% of the deaths in Iraq were civilians then they must be doing something wrong. i feel so bad for Manning, he didnt brutally murder some poor little Middle Eastern kid like a lot of these kill teams do, he was just messin around on the computer doing something that he thought was good, and that a lot of people think is good. you think the NWO is a good thing? have fun with your RFID chips in prison, at least ill be dead, fuck this broken planet
April 14th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
FREE BRADLEY MANNING!
April 14th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
Let the f@g traitor rot in jail.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:41 pm
It’s a shame that regardless of whether we think he did rightly or wrongly he is not treated the same as other military prisoners that seems to be the bugbear here and I have to say it brings shame to a big nation not to be able to refute any such claims publicly and with all party transparency.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:38 pm
” Let the f@g traitor rot in jail. ”
To expose what a government wants more than anything else to hide is patriotism at it’s highest.
No traitors here, and whether or not he is a f@g is irrelevant.
The biggest homopobes are usually self loathing, but I think you know that.
April 14th, 2011 at 5:32 pm
About “ntmd8r3 Says:Let the f@g traitor rot in jail.”
@ntmd8r3:
We are NOT going to let OUR country go in the toilet. Justice will prevail, Manning will be free and the war criminals and those persecuting him and breaking OUR law will rote in jail instead.
May be you are one of them and if this is the case we will catch-up with you too.
We are the real patriot. The criminals in the government, the CIA, those piece of shit in charge of the pentagon, those who are torturing Manning are not.
If they think they can go away with this they are delusional.
For those the punishment will be severe and must prepare to spend the rest of their lives in prison, unless they die before and have to answer their crimes to somebody else.
NOBODY NEVER GO AWAY WITH ANYTHING!
April 14th, 2011 at 7:29 pm
Traitors are traditionally shot. Since when did they become cause celebre for bleeding heart, left-wing, liberal lunatic fringe anarchist closet-twinks?
April 14th, 2011 at 9:57 pm
“Traitors are traditionally shot. Since when did they become cause celebre for bleeding heart, left-wing, liberal lunatic fringe anarchist closet-twinks?”
Name calling. Looks like its getting third grade up in here! I counter that by saying that you sir have cooties. A whole mess of them.
The USG can only do this for so long. They’ve entered into a self defeating and feeding cycle where the heavier handed there methods the greater the public sympathy garnered. People may dislike Manning because hes gay or because in all technicality he did break military rules. The gov’t will continue to do this to people who leak information or speak out, people who may not have the social baggage or military status that Manning does.
April 14th, 2011 at 10:41 pm
The Law is blatantly clear. Bradley signed a ‘contract’ and swore an oath to uphold a service outside of his Sovereign and Common Law Rights.
Only way to get him out Lawfully is by using a Notary Public Document sent by Sovereign and or Free Men and Women to Military and or Federal Institutions ‘Demanding’ his release under Common Law Jurisdiction or Sovereign decree … or by many such ‘Documents’
this way Military are on ‘Notice’ that they are ‘obligated’ to release Bradley or suffer the consequences of what Free and or Sovereign Men and Women decide.
in case of this refusal of ‘Notice’ the Military and anyone connected to them will automatically be making a Treasonous act … as Free and or Sovereign Men and Women are present Law on Earth. if Military chooses to attack these Men and Women, which they don’t dare as they are outnumbered 10000 to 1, then Men and Women need to be prepared for such
April 15th, 2011 at 10:29 am
” Name calling. Looks like its getting third grade up in here! I counter that by saying that you sir have cooties. A whole mess of them. ”
Nope.
Just one person posting under different names.
Pretty easy to spot, though this person thinks they’re clever.
April 15th, 2011 at 7:11 pm
Self Loather=g00d 57uff (Same guy*)
“Traitors are traditionally shot.”
Yes. You are a traitor.
(*Next time use the fake persona software from Elbagary to be more convincing.)
April 15th, 2011 at 8:24 pm
@gabbi
“The Law is blatantly clear. Bradley signed a ‘contract’ and swore an oath to uphold a service outside of his Sovereign and Common Law Rights.
Only way to get him out Lawfully is by using a Notary Public Document sent by Sovereign and or Free Men and Women to Military and or Federal Institutions ‘Demanding’ his release under Common Law Jurisdiction or Sovereign decree … or by many such ‘Documents’”
Is it the way we can dismiss the government since it has become criminal and abusive before we organize new federal election, incumbents not to apply as per the constitution?
April 15th, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Predator:
If you can get a good body of evidence to bring them in front of Common Law Courts then absolutely Yes
April 16th, 2011 at 11:48 am
Talking to yourself is schizophrenic … and lame.
April 16th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
@Dredd
Notary Public has more power than any member of the bar, government, PM, president, king or queen, judge or any administrator since they can serve documents that are recorded as Certified Copies or certified fact. All accept for where notaries are members of the bar, like Ontario Canada. This is true anywhere in the world as it’s basically the same system. For areas where notaries are lawyers papers can be notarized in next province, state or area. Any good clerk will tell you this.
Since 9/11 notaries have been under attack by Fed certification, “must be a member of Bar” or some such thing. In response notaries everywhere have served notice on Feds and leaders to cease and desist or be declared null and void of any power. List includes US, Germany, Greece, Italy, UK, India, China, Australia, Indonesia, Russia, South Africa and many others.
You need to check the news once in a while Dredd.
April 16th, 2011 at 6:48 pm
I’ll just ask my wife .. she’s a Notary.
Note from Devil’s Advocate:
I’ve made the decision to start deleting the personal attacks contained in some of these comments, or simply make the comment vanish if that’s all it contains.
No good ever comes from them, and the point of the discussion always gets tossed out the window.
April 16th, 2011 at 9:45 pm
@dv
deleting comments only makes them angrier, it’s better to reply to them with facts, evidence and brains
deleting makes them take it out on someone else, like their family or community at large
ignoring them does as above
keeping them forces individual to think, answer more fully, answer with evidence and apologize as needed
keeping derogatory comments shows everyone who the person really is
it is the part of nature of man
we live in a world where powers that be have twisted the mentality of most by segregation, putting people into boxes, disassociating them, making them sick, and even twisted
these are ticking time bombs and why today’s youth are joining gangs, in turn causing more damage to communities and society as a whole
anyone running a forum should comprehend this and adapt accordingly, deleting only repeat comments, spam and letting the forum users handle detractors with smarts
or is “ONLY items referencing the post at hand, please. No links to personal sites, no personal attacks, trolling, freebie advertising, or off-topic posts” there only as a joke?
point of discussion is to advance and bring in more views, other ideas, solutions, other parts, to connect the dots and get a fuller picture. if this is not accomplished then it’s not a forum and becomes a tyranny, just like governing bodies today, Harper’s dictatorship anyone?
April 17th, 2011 at 2:28 am
@ the above Reader’s Write:
Okay, let’s examine your comment, and see if there’s an actual point to it, shall we?…
1) “…it’s better to reply to them with facts, evidence and brains”
You’re basically saying, I need to supply some sort of “factual” or “qualified” answer to simple, outright abusiveness?
2) “keeping them forces individual to think, answer more fully, answer with evidence and apologize as needed
keeping derogatory comments shows everyone who the person really is”
Simply allowing people to continue an abusive exchange ALWAYS detracts from the page and its topic, and turns other readers off from participating as well. Very rarely do any of these end with an apology from anyone.
3) “anyone running a forum should comprehend this and adapt accordingly, deleting only repeat comments, spam and letting the forum users handle detractors with smarts”
only to be followed by…
“or is ‘ONLY items referencing the post at hand, please. No links to personal sites, no personal attacks, trolling, freebie advertising, or off-topic posts’ there only as a joke?”
So, which is it?…
On the one hand, you pretty much say ALL comments should be allowed, but on the other hand, you refer to the policy, which is pretty clear in its request. Do you think the posted policy should be enforced or not?
4) “point of discussion is to advance and bring in more views, other ideas, solutions, other parts, to connect the dots and get a fuller picture.”
Since abusive exchanges do nothing but hijack the conversation away from the topic, and discourage others from continuing with it, the very POINT OF DISCUSSION is defeated.
____________________
So, you don’t like the policy posted.
And, you think enforcing that policy is somehow “dictatorial”.
If a site displays a policy, but doesn’t enforce it, that would actually make it “a joke”.
I’d say, since it’s displayed right in front of you as a sincere wish, anyone that disagrees with it that strongly should just start their own site, rather than insisting the site change its view of what it describes.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:46 am
@dv
What i’m saying is many of us would like to see those attack comments, they can easily be put in separate section for users to view, deal with and decide on. Many within those comments have some good points but they fall for other user’s instigating them into attacks. It’s like creating another thread till it’s resolved. If nobody answers there for a time then it’s trashed or if there’s more upvotes then it’s brought back into thread as it’s cleaned of troll parts. Similar to going to play in recycle bin. It’s like telling my kids or their friends to go play in another room to sort it out. They usually come back as friends.
Users can peek and vote up or down on such comments as well, while they are out of view on main page of article. This way they are kept separate and can be deleted in one shot if they get carried away.
Forums who use this method have actually caught predators, psychopaths, stalkers and other criminals. Give them enough rope and they will hang themselves idea.
Some smaller towns use this type of forum to keep the peace as well as bring in new ideas. It’s all anonymous, no personal info allowed, runs off wireless, impossible to track. Some have taken back their town from corrupt officials or gangs.
From DA:
As you may or may not have noticed, this site is not a “forum”, at least not in the true sense. There are no independent “strings” of conversation being generated – only straight comments, generally posted in response to the posted material at the top of each page.
There is no interest “here” in abusive posts, as there’s no incentive to do so, and plenty of incentive NOT to.
April 17th, 2011 at 9:58 am
” Note from Devil’s Advocate:
I’ve made the decision to start deleting the personal attacks contained in some of these comments, or simply make the comment vanish if that’s all it contains. ”
I don’t have a problem with this in the least, and it was my post he edited.
Get over it Gabbi.
From DA:
Just to be clear, I wasn’t paying attention to *who* was posting when I began editing. I only wanted to stop the current “exchange” where it was, and try to restore the page’s intent.
April 17th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Yeah quartz, nobody has ever been sued before even though the law is on their side /rolleyes. Jon just got sued for LINKING to a story, not even reposting it on p2pnet. And even though the law was on his side he had to fight it all the way to the supreme court. A lot of time, effort and money he didn’t have wasted.
The bottom line is you can think whatever you want about manning. What he did was right, what he did was wrong, whatever. It’s your opinion. But lets not make up stuff that clearly isn’t true just because we want to feel a certain way. It takes away from p2pnet’s credibility on other issues. I love this place and don’t want to see it happen.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
@Dreddsnik
Well, actually it’s his lawyer saying it who is the one guy that actually has access to manning and is pretty much being ignored in this whole thing. Or maybe hes just a co conspirator with the government? Same with mannings friend who got a visit with him, he must be be in on it to since he said manning claimed he wasn’t being mistreated! At some point you have to start taking somebody’s word or you will think everything is a conspiracy. As far as I can tell the lawyer has no reason to lie, neither does the best friend.
This site however which I’m guessing gets little to no regular traffic is getting a lot of attention by creating this petition and making stuff up in the process. More traffic = more money = yay! Funny nobody is seeing the conspiracy right in front of them since they are to busy wanting to believe manning is the victim of terrible abuse.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:19 pm
@Captain
There is a real anti-US and anti-establishment feeling in a lot of people around the world right now. Manning and Assange are idolized by many simply because they messed with the established order, no matter the consequences or what their true motives behind doing so are. Thinking that Manning is being hung by his testicles every night and that the CIA is trying to assassinate Assange gives them an excuse to vent the anger they already have. And there are many people like the guy that run this petition site that are happy to play into those feelings in exchange for their own needs being met.
It does make me sad, and I sometimes wonder if this is a new development or it’s something common only to the era I live in.
April 17th, 2011 at 3:23 pm
@DA
My last comment in my comment blitz I promise. Just wanted to say you are doing an awesome job stepping up and helping while jon’s away, and don’t worry if people are angry their comments are being deleted. Your doing the right thing.
April 17th, 2011 at 6:52 pm
@Otis:
Thanks for that!
“What?… Me worry?!”
- Alfred E. Neumann
April 17th, 2011 at 8:31 pm
@da
“As you may or may not have noticed” i can see what this website blog or whatever you want to call it is and see how it functions. it makes me wonder what dreddsnik said to be edited so we learn from it
it would be great to see there has been a fully deleted comment, leave some kind of track or message
i’m all for editing comments where needed as long as the message comes across.
this exchange could have been moved to another page?
with Jon talking about making it like wiki site i’m bounding ideas here.
April 17th, 2011 at 9:00 pm
Dreddsnik: “Get over it Gabbi.”
I don’t have a problem with you. You can talk all you want and doesn’t bother me one bit. I just like exposing anyone and everyone if they don’t tell the truth. From what I hear I have a price on my head for doing so and I still don’t care
How did you make out with asking your wife about what anon @ cra-arc.gc.ca said?
Otis:
Nice assumptions but we won’t know til we see Manning. That’s the problem, they lock him up with no way to defend himself and then call him all kinds of names and most likely abuse him. That’s how legal system gets away with lies, murder and other crimes, it’s setup as a conspiracy from the get go. As long as he’s locked up and away from free speech we won’t know.
A lawful system would tell and show everyone what’s going on.
April 17th, 2011 at 9:16 pm
” Note from Devil’s Advocate:
I’ve made the decision to start deleting the personal attacks contained in some of these comments, or simply make the comment vanish if that’s all it contains. ”
I tend to be reactive when it comes to that, if someone shits on me they get it back. Otherwise it’s better just to make the point sans personal attacks. The exception to that is RIAA shills. There is nothing they bring to the table that hasn’t been endlessly chanted like a mantra on all the media outlets they own so I attack them as viciously as I can.
April 17th, 2011 at 10:08 pm
“if someone shits on me they get it back”
@Monkey:
You would probably know as well as anyone that I’ve not exactly been the “model citizen” in these situations, either.
So, you can probably also understand how much inner conflict comes into it, when you find yourself having to moderate others’ entries.
April 17th, 2011 at 10:30 pm
@Reader’s Write:
1) “it makes me wonder what dreddsnik said to be edited so we learn from it”
Trust me. No “educational” content as been removed.
2) “it would be great to see there has been a fully deleted comment, leave some kind of track or message”
The only things missing when I’m done would be senseless fingerpointing, abusive attacks, and counter-productive posturing. Anyone who misses these can always turn to WWE or any number of “reality TV” shows.
3) “i’m all for editing comments where needed as long as the message comes across.”
I agree… when there’s a message.
Otherwise, refer to #1 and #2.
4) “this exchange could have been moved to another page?”
Let me get this straight.
You honestly think a spat between commenters is worth its own page?!
I’d say, refer the my answer in #2.
5) “with Jon talking about making it like wiki site i’m bounding ideas here.”
“Wiki”, is simply a format.
If this a wiki-style site, it still wouldn’t encourage destructive bantry, as that would still detract from the posted issues and feedback – the site’s main reason for being.
Point me to a “wiki” site that actually accomodates abusive and/or confrontational strings. I’d be interested in one that does, mostly to see what possible motivation there would be for doing so.
April 17th, 2011 at 11:00 pm
” i can see what this website blog or whatever you want to call it is and see how it functions. it makes me wonder what dreddsnik said to be edited so we learn from it ”
Not one thing.
I’m 100 percent behind DA’s decision to censor it.
See .. a conspiracy. ooooooooooooo Scary.
April 17th, 2011 at 11:04 pm
” i can see what this website blog or whatever you want to call it is and see how it functions. it makes me wonder what dreddsnik said to be edited so we learn from it ”
If it’s really THAT important to you I said, ” The Piper prefers his Borscht in a Raft on the Thames ”
( Yes, it’s a secret code ).
Satisfied ?
April 17th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
@Dredd:
I don’t think of it as “censorship” (per se).
I hope you don’t, either.
_____________________________
The rest of this comment is not directed at anyone in particular…
Censorship, to me, is the art of silencing that which has a natural right to be said. And, as we know, all natural rights do not supercede other natural rights or, more importantly, *others’* natural rights.
In the scheme of things, Jon has the ultimate right to run his site (a private site at that) the way he feels, and I’m sure we’re all behind him on that. Nobody’s (assumed) “right to free speech” can supercede Jon’s right to publish or not publish said “speech” at his own discretion.
At the present time, I am nothing but an extension of Jon, and, whether viewed as being in the right or in the wrong by anyone else, I believe very strongly that I’m upholding Jon’s sincere wish – that the site generate awareness of, and constructive thought and feedback on the published issues at hand.
This cannot be accomplished by allowing a page to be hijacked by bickering.
Anyone who followed a2f2a can attest to that.
April 18th, 2011 at 6:36 am
OH for the love of gods someone finally said it:
“Censorship, to me, is the art of silencing that which has a natural right to be said. And, as we know, all natural rights do not supercede other natural rights or, more importantly, *others’* natural rights.”
I bow to you this once in respect and can now call you a Man, or Woman, which ever the state may be. I the history of P2Pnet this is the first time anyone has shown such respect by typing the statement you have just made.
April 18th, 2011 at 1:41 pm
” I don’t think of it as “censorship” (per se).
I hope you don’t, either. ”
I don’t.
Poor choice of words, it’s ‘moderation’, i.e. your job, as it were.
There’s a pretty big difference between you doing what you’re supposed to by deleting my somewhat
‘douchy’ comment in Jon’s private space and actual censorship. I totally get it. Some are either too stupid,
or ‘disconnected’ to understand the difference, it would appear.
April 19th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
“There is a real anti-US and anti-establishment feeling in a lot of people around the world right now.”
Anti-establishment yes. Anti US government yes again and for good reasons. The Manning and Assange scandals are further proof that the US government is out of control and that something has to be done right now about that!
Anti US? NO!
The US government is not the US. USA is us, the citizen of the united state of America.
We are supposed to be in control of our government according to the constitution. We have lost this control to the multinational corporations and we are determined to get it back even if we have to destroy all the multinational corporations one by one world wide to achieve that.
We will succeed because it is a lot easier to destroy than to build.
April 19th, 2011 at 9:41 pm
“The Manning and Assange scandals are further proof that the US government is out of control and that something has to be done right now about that!”
I keep hearing that everywhere. What about them proves the government is out of control? That we lock up people who leak sensitive information? That innocent people die in war? I read all the cable reports I could find and even though it was interesting inside stuff none of it struck me as scandalous. Did I miss something everyone else is reading?
“We are supposed to be in control of our government according to the constitution. We have lost this control to the multinational corporations and we are determined to get it back even if we have to destroy all the multinational corporations one by one world wide to achieve that.”
But we are in control of our government, that’s what a republic is. The power is ultimately in the hands of the people. Just because both of our main political parties have been bought out by special interests doesn’t mean the people don’t have some responsibility for continually voting them back into office. The rush the voters get when their political tribe beats the enemies political tribe is now more important to the american populace then having a government that responds to the citizens needs, and as such we will suffer the consequences. It’s nobodies fault but our own.
April 19th, 2011 at 9:47 pm
For anyone who’s interested bradley manning is now being moved to a medium security facility at Ft. Leavenworth in Kansas. I guess the relentless bad PR the military was getting no matter what they did was finally enough.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/20/bradley-manning-moved-virginia-kansas
One thing I will say about Dennis Kucinich is he knows exactly what to say to get his name in the papers.
Dennis Kucinich, who has raised the case on Capitol Hill, said that “nothing the department of defence has done so far with respect to Pfc Manning provides any assurance that his basic human and constitutional rights are being protected. Any move does not change the underlying fact, that he has been held under conditions which may constitute cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the 8th amendment” of the US constitution.”
Haha, I’m sure manning prefers his comfy heated cell to the conditions provided to prisoners actually held in the times of the writing of the constitution. Try reading up on the convention army or british prison ships sometime if you’re bored.
April 19th, 2011 at 11:00 pm
@Otis.
“Haha, I’m sure manning prefers his comfy heated cell to the conditions provided to prisoners actually held in the times of the writing of the constitution. Try reading up on the convention army or british prison ships sometime if you’re bored.”
This absolutely does not make sense unless you think of USA as a country 235 years behind the rest of the world.
Is it what you mean? If this is the case I have to tell you that I disagree 100% with that and as a patriot I am not accepting what has been done to Bradley Manning.
Moreover as a citizen of the 21st century I am demanding the immediate liberation of Bradley Manning. If the government and the US army does not want “whistle blowing” then they have better to walk straight because with internet everyone know everything like it or not.
Finally the US government or the US army IS NOT USA. USA is us, the citizen and we have the right to know what is done in our name with OUR TAX MONEY.
Your English is poor by the way.
April 19th, 2011 at 11:38 pm
@Predator
Congress publishes a budget every year, so if you took the time to read it you would know what was being done with your tax money.
I’m not sure why you think just because the rest of the world is doing something we must do it also. It’s more important to be fashionable and follow the trends then to think and decide whats best for yourself?
You can’t say his constitutional rights are being violated without looking at the original intent of the founding fathers, and I think looking at how they treated prisoners proves that they did not intend the lavish lifestyle for prisoners most people expect nowadays. Even if you take all the technological advances into consideration.
Also, I wish I could lower myself to insulting the english and grammar of other posters rather then taking the time to just refute the argument behind it, but for some reason I just can’t bring myself to be that lazy. Guess I will just end up giving myself carpal tunnel typing out long thought out arguments.
April 20th, 2011 at 5:51 am
We really don’t know what is true about Manning’s treatment or what is false. The same applies to Obama’s birth certificate. Whenever something major happens, conspiracy theories will abound. Does this mean that conspiracy theories are incorrect or that those who believe in them or utter them crazy? Does it mean that the conspiracy theories are correct? No it does not. What is basically at play is the fact that the U.S. government as well as the state governments have lied so much and have broken so many promises that any statement issue by such are no longer so widely believed. These governments have rightly EARNED our skepticism and contempt. In the Police States of Amerika, there is little to no legal accountability for governmental misconduct.
April 20th, 2011 at 12:26 pm
@Otis
You are a troll pay by the pentagon and there is no point talking to you. By the way you are doing a poor job and you should be using the HB Gary fake persona software. Although this software suck it would do a better job than you.
Tell your master that the US citizen will be coming for them soon..
April 21st, 2011 at 2:26 pm
@Predator
I can testify that Otis is NOT a troll paid by the pentagon. The reason why someone commits an act IS important, and Otis and I both read that Manning’s reason for turning over secret information was that he was angry because he felt the military wasn’t praising him for doing his job correctly. If true, that is a vile and despicable reason, and yes he should be punished.
The relentless whining about him not getting his blanky wanky and other crybaby shit also left me unsympathetic. Funny how everyone here cries about that but no one seems to be bothered by the fate of young people tossed in genpop (slang for prison general population) for trivial shit like minor drug crimes. Every day for them is ass rape city, I would bet most of them would ENVY Manning, who is protected by marine guards while they are thrown to the wolves with NO protection.
“For anyone who’s interested Bradley Manning is now being moved to a medium security facility at Ft. Leavenworth in Kansas. I guess the relentless bad PR the military was getting no matter what they did was finally enough.”
I bet any amount of money he will definitely get PC (protective custody) when he gets there, which he will no doubt complain about. http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2wpwllrMi1qb6zpuo1_400.jpg
April 21st, 2011 at 3:17 pm
@Cyberscan
Every conspiracy that has been uncovered in the history of the nation (such as the watergate break ins) always has a trail of evidence. Woodward and Bernstein didn’t just suddenly start believing that Nixon was a crook and writing about it, they followed the evidence and based their conclusions on what they found. So far when it comes to both Manning and Obama’s birth certificate all the evidence points in only one direction. There has been nothing credible from any source that says manning in somehow being tortured or that Obama was born in Kenya. Until something is actually uncovered then yes, it is crazy to believe in a conspiracy.
@Predator
Insulting my english didn’t make me go away so now I’m a paid troll. Must be nice just believing whatever you want without ever having to justify or argue your position. A simple existence, kind of like living on sesame street.
April 22nd, 2011 at 1:02 pm
@Monkey D. Luffy=Otis*
You are not impressing anyone troll. At least be useful for something: Did you told your master that they will end up in prison for breaking our law and trampling our constitution? Did you tell your master that they have better to free Bradley Manning right now or they are going to get it?
*Use the HB Garry software. You are not doing a good job. Also the HB Garry software has a spell and grammar checker.
April 22nd, 2011 at 1:09 pm
Yes. Predator is right. Your are a troll paid by the pentagon. The proof of this is your silly attempt to duplicate your persona.
You know perfectly well that the jailing and torturing of Bradley Manning is very wrong and totally illegal but you and your friends are paid to try to give the impression that most people agree with the crap the US gov is doing.
YOU FAILED!
( You see, me to I can do this! Predator.)
April 22nd, 2011 at 1:51 pm
@Predator/Jack:
“Monkey D. Luffy=Otis”
No duplicate identity going on there.
Monkey is a regular, and a blogger himself.
Incidentally, what incentive would anyone have to promote anything “HB Gary”?
Should I put on my tinfoil hat here?
April 22nd, 2011 at 4:57 pm
DA, Otis/Gabbi has been talking to himself a lot in this thread, I think it’s a record for number of different alts used to
derail a topic.
Pointing at Monkey is just an attempt to steer attention away from it.
April 22nd, 2011 at 9:46 pm
I’m the only one staying on topic, which is Bradley Manning. Not arguing about notaries, not using the comment section to level personal attacks and not playing one big guess the alt game to divert attention away from the fact he isn’t the tortured hero most people want to make him out to be.
Manning’s transfer is complete and he is now at the medium security facility at Ft. Leavenworth.
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/04/20/2815672/accused-wikileaks-informant-moved.html
April 22nd, 2011 at 10:45 pm
Monkey is Monkey and Otis is Otis. I know Otis, but he is not me. I can testify he is not “alt’ing” he is posting here as Otis, period. You can accuse me of being a paid shill for the pentagon, I’ll just laugh at you. I’ve been posting here WAY before this topic came up usually shitting on the RIAA and the FAC (featured artist coalition). The governments position on p2p issues have been dead opposite of mine, I have been far from a government mouth piece. I can’t speak for Predator, but Dread, you should know better, I’ve been here even before the a2f2a days with Billy Bragg, arguing with him then and uselessly trying to get info out of him on the FAC. I have an opinion on Manning that is similar to Otis’s, feel free to disagree with us but rest assured we are NOT the same person and I give you my word(for what it’s worth, I hope it means SOMETHING to Devil and Jon) Otis is not “alt’ing”.
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:00 pm
At this point, there are 55 comments on this page.
At best, half of those comments actually reflect on the page’s topic in any meaningful way.
Meanwhile, we may have one troll here at the most.
From what I see, we probably have none.
How about we all take off the tinfoil hats and make some rational points?
(And, I include myself when I say this!)
April 23rd, 2011 at 6:01 am
Manning’s transfer is complete and he is now at the medium security facility at Ft. Leavenworth.
Too late. They have to free him or else.
April 23rd, 2011 at 10:55 am
” but Dread, you should know better, ”
I do, you misread.
this from me …
” Pointing at Monkey is just an attempt to steer attention away from it. ”
Indicates that I am aware that you have always been who say you are. I am referring to a common troll practice of
pointing a finger at another when it is discovered that they are using multiple alts. An alt claimed you are using alts,
unaware of how long you’ve actually been here. That person is an idiot.
” Meanwhile, we may have one troll here at the most. ”
That is a certainty. There is only one, and just a pretend consensus.
April 23rd, 2011 at 11:10 am
As for Manning ….
My only take is that he is being made an example.
You know the one .. ‘ Snitches get stitches’.
Our government ( Yes, I know the US is not alone in this ) is ridiculously corrupt.
Manning embarrassed the power that be, and is being used to show what will happen to anyone
who dares expose any form of corruption. Whether he is being ‘abused’ or not is unclear because ..
A. We already know that top level government will always lie ( regardless of country ).
B. Lawyers love to try their cases in the court of public opinion, and will also lie.
We’ll never, REALLY, know the truth of it, but instead of focusing on what was uncovered, we allow ourselves to
be completely sidetracked by the circus which only helps a corrupt government.
We are all a bunch of sheep … every last one of us.
April 25th, 2011 at 11:46 am
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/25/guantanamo-files-lift-lid-prison
Is the person who leaked these documents going to be locked up too ?
April 25th, 2011 at 5:59 pm
“Is the person who leaked these documents going to be locked up too ?”
If they just dumped a bunch of classified material on the net without really knowing what it contained like Manning, then I hope they do.
Guantanamo makes me sad. Like the patriot act and now libya it’s been one of Obama’s biggest failures to not shut it down, or at least get a better working system into place. 10 years is long enough, they need to string up the really bad ones already and start repatriating the rest. The relentless bad PR we get is not worth the meager scraps of intelligence that haven’t been squeezed out of them yet.
April 25th, 2011 at 10:17 pm
” If they just dumped a bunch of classified material on the net without really knowing what it contained like Manning, then I hope they do. ”
Yup, we must make sure that the government can abuse authority without consequence.
Whistleblowers beware.
” they need to string up the really bad ones already and start repatriating the rest. ”
Would that be the final solution then ?
We get closer and closer and refuse to see.
April 25th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
Manning did not do anything else than to blow the whistle on crime committed by certain members of the US army. As US citizen we have the right to know and demand justice. The war criminals should be prosecuted.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:29 am
Yes, executing a guy like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who has spent the last 2 decades trying to murder me, my family and dreddsnik is the moral equivalent of rounding people up based on race/religion/sexual orientation and slaughtering them wholesale. How did you even find the enter key.
It would seem Manning might be the source of the new documents. That kid must have had to rent a truck to haul all the flash drives full of information over to assange.
In other news, it would seem assange is now trying to blacklist certain newspapers from getting leak information simply because they had the audacity to report on his sexual abuse scandal.
http://www.journalism.co.uk/news/guardian-double-crossed-by-wikileaks-over-guant-namo-leak/s2/a543836/
I guess he wanted to keep that personal and private!
April 26th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
” Yes, executing a guy like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who has spent the last 2 decades trying to murder me, my family and dreddsnik is the moral equivalent of rounding people up based on race/religion/sexual orientation and slaughtering them wholesale. How did you even find the enter key. ”
Really ?
What do YOU call killing and torturing people for the crime of being SUSPECTED of being muslim ?
It IS a neat strawman though, handily mentioning nothing about the alzheimer patient and the
12 year old kidnap victim that the leaked documents refer to.
I found the enter key easily because i’m not cowering under my desk in fear of the brown people.
April 26th, 2011 at 10:19 pm
@Dredd,
Sorry I misinterpreted you. Glad there at least two people here who can occasionally disagree with me without accusing me of being an Otis clone!
I don’t care for Bradley Manning. I think he’s a spiteful little pissant who gave the documents to Assaud not out of any great patriotic urge, but out of spite because he was angry at the Army who he felt did not treat him well. I don’t think it was just a coincidence that he got demoted in rank before releasing the documents.
I generally support whistle blowers, I’ll give you two who I admire.
Daniel Ellsberg – Released the pentagon papers ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers ) to the New York Times. The pentagon papers revealed the plethora of lies the government had been telling people about the war in Vietnam for decades.
William Mark Felt (aka “Deep Throat”) – Gave reporter Bob Woodward inside information about Nixon’s activities involving the Watergate scandal ( http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdeepthroat.htm )
You will notice something similar about the above whistle blowers. Ellberg didn’t like Vietnam, and Felt didn’t like what Nixon was doing. They both leaked documents SPECIFIC to the abuses they didn’t like.
I don’t doubt that Ellsberg and Felt had access to other secret documents pertaining to other matters, but they did not leak them. It appears that Manning, on the other hand, leaked EVERYTHING he had access to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_manning
“The leaked material is said to have included over 250,000 United States diplomatic cables, the first of which WikiLeaks published in February 2010, with newspapers publishing the rest from November that year onwards; Apache gunsight footage of the July 12, 2007, Baghdad airstrike, published by WikiLeaks in April 2010 as the “Collateral Murder” video; and F-18 gunsight footage of the Granai airstrike in Afghanistan, which WikiLeaks said it planned to release in future.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7918632/Bradley-Manning-suspected-source-of-Wikileaks-documents-raged-on-his-Facebook-page.html
“Mr Manning, 22, who is currently awaiting court martial, is suspected of leaking more than 90,000 secret military documents to the Wikileaks website in a security breach which US officials claim has endangered the lives of serving soldiers and Afghan informers.”
If he was upset, as he claims, about the gun sight footage, why didn’t he leak just that and whatever documents pertained to it? Is anyone SERIOUSLY going to argue he was offended by all 250,000 diplomatic cables and 90,000 secret military documents? If he had any sense of responsibility or conscience, and was really looking out for the countries best interest he would have released only the documents that he felt showed U.S. wrong doing. By releasing every secret document he could get his hands on to Assange he used an atomic bomb where a Rapier was called for.
April 26th, 2011 at 10:46 pm
Who is killing and torturing people for being muslim? And who said “the alzheimer patient and the 12 year old kidnap victim” were the ones who were tortured? As nice as it would be to just take every detainees word for the fact they that were kidnapped and REALLY didn’t mean to fight with the taliban and kill americans we can’t. You have to investigate and make sure, which can take time. Both cases you mentioned were already investigated and repatriated.
And before you mention Omar Khadr, the kid who’s still at guantanamo, I don’t care if your 5 or 95, if you willingly murder an american citizen like he did you deserve to be locked up. Plus he’s already worked his way through the legal system and Canada should get him back soon enough.
Also, DA if you are reading this I have some write ups p2pnet might be interested in. Is there some way to contact you directly, I tried emailing the p2pnet@shaw.ca address but got no response. I’m sure Liz is busy enough with everything going on and I don’t want to bug her again.
April 26th, 2011 at 11:14 pm
Great post monkey, and dred I was responding the the RW with that comment. I included you in my post because you are a fellow american citizen and for that reason alone, khalid sheikh mohammed and several of his cellmates at guantanamo want to kill you and your family.
April 26th, 2011 at 11:37 pm
“Is there some way to contact you directly…”
@Otis:
I’m sure you’ll understand there’s a few good reasons I simply can’t post my direct contact info.
)
The p2pnet address will have received what you sent, and I’m sure Liz will forward it when she has a second.
(And, she’s not the only one scrambling to find time, either.
Hang tight. I promise I’ll act on it when it arrives.
April 26th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
Makes sense, many thanks.
April 27th, 2011 at 10:56 am
” I included you in my post because you are a fellow american citizen and for that reason alone, khalid sheikh mohammed and several of his cellmates at guantanamo want to kill you and your family. ”
I still will never believe that anything or anyone is scary enough to not be entitled to due process.
Say the words ‘terrorist’ , ‘muslim, ‘sheik’ etc. and we’re all willing to replace due process with
‘lock him up and throw away the key, just in case’, just to be safe .. after all it’s for the safety of my ‘children’
so it’s cool.
Do you honestly think that this treatment won’t soon be applied to other ‘potential’ criminals and/or
enemies of the state ? That’s what scares me. Not the muslims, the cold hard FACT that we’re on the road
that leads to any one of us being lumped in with them without ever knowing why, and we all know where that
road ends, no matter how hard we don’t want to see. After all, we’re the ‘good guys’, so that makes it OK, right ?
April 29th, 2011 at 5:40 am
@Dreddsnik
I guess we are in agreement then, cause I don’t like guantanamo either. Those guys should have to face a legitimate trial in a reasonable amount of time or get processed out. Bush already tried locking up an american citizen arrested on american soil without charges, so that slope is very slippery.
As much as that article headline likes to make it out to be, we weren’t waterboarding 89 year old alzheimer’s patients and the 12 year old. We didn’t ship anyone there just for being muslim either. There just seems to be this effort in the press to mislead people in order to keep them interested and the ad revenue flowing. Annoying really, it’s distorting our national discussion.
April 29th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
” There just seems to be this effort in the press to mislead people ”
Yes there is, but not in the way you suggest.
The ONLY way we ever hear anything about shady government goings on are through leaks.
the ‘Press’ is remarkably silent unless something is leaked and they a forced to report. If not
for these leaks we would be mislead, and unaware.
April 29th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
@Dreddsnik
Monkey and I are in the same school of thought that leaks are good as long as the purpose for doing so is noble and other information which might hurt the country is kept private. Monkey covered that topic better then I can in his post, so I will just refer to it.
Most of the more interesting information that was leaked had already been discussed in the press prior to wikileaks. The ISI’s complicity with the taliban was already fairly well known and talked about, at least in the papers I was reading. There were no government conspiracies uncovered. What ended up happening? A bunch of hardworking ambassador’s serving their country got embarrassed and fired. All because they had the nerve to speak the truth in a communication that was supposed to be private.
Why is Bradley Manning, an army private who leaked every piece of sensitive information he could get his hands on because he was bitter and spiteful about the army a more sympathetic character then say Carlos Pascual? A hardworking immigrant who worked his way up into the ambassadorship of mexico. Took less money then he could get in the private sector in order to have a chance to serve his country. Forced to resign because he offended the mexican president by saying what everyone already knows, Mexico can’t handle the drug cartels. I don’t get it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12798622
April 30th, 2011 at 10:41 am
” as the purpose for doing so is noble and other information which might hurt the country is kept private. ”
If the government is doing something that is clearly wrong, or otherwise my be considered unconstitutional or illegal,
then it doesn’t really matter what the motivation of the leak is. The government is still committing crimes.
It’s kind of strange how governments like to say to the citizenry ‘if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear’,
yet they allow no such scrutiny of themselves. If the Government is committing the crime it is THEY who are guilty of
hurting the country. Blaming the leaker is tantamount to blaming the victim of a rape for ‘dressing sexy’ and ‘asking
for it’.
The person COMMITTING the crime is the guilty party and should be held accountable, regardless of who, how, or why
the information comes into the light.
We can ‘what if’ ourselves into circles all we want, that is still a very basic truth.
And still we focus on the leaker and not the crimes reported, or simply find ways to justify the crimes reported.
We should be paid for our wonderful civil service.
April 30th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
@Dredd,
I think you missed the point that Otis and I have been trying to make about what separates Manning from a lot, if not most of the leakers out there. Manning didn’t go over his info, and just release documents showing illegal government activity, he released EVERYTHING he had. Please explain to me just what was “illegal” about Carlos Pascual telling the truth about Mexico and drug cartels? Why would Manning be angry with Pascual? What purpose was served forcing his retirement? The fact is Manning didn’t give a shit if anyone innocent got hurt because of what he did, as Otis and I both keep repeating, he was angry with the army and wanted to punish it, which he did. That little puke should not be held up as some kind of whistle blower hero, there are FAR better examples than him. The two I mentioned in a previous post and here is another. This women is a REAL hero, she died because of what she did. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Silkwood THAT’s sacrifice, not Manning crying over his blanky. Does he need a binky too?
April 30th, 2011 at 8:04 pm
” I think you missed the point that Otis and I have been trying to make about what separates Manning from a lot, if not most of the leakers out there. Manning didn’t go over his info, ”
You missed mine as well.
” The fact is Manning didn’t give a shit if anyone innocent got hurt because of what he did, as Otis and I both keep repeating, he was angry with the army and wanted to punish it, which he did. ”
How do you know this ?
Did Bradley Manning tell you this ?
Lots of press agencies and government officials are ‘saying’ this, but I haven’t heard anything from Manning.
The only thing you know about his motives are what you are being told, and those sources are suspect. Lawyers and government officials.
You already believe it to be true, so these officials are simply confirming what you ALREADY believe.
” That little puke should not be held up as some kind of whistle blower hero, there are FAR better examples than him. ”
Maybe so, but there are very few facts and a whole lot of assumptions. As I pointed out earlier, cases like these make ‘innocent until proven guilty’
meaningless, and surprisingly intelligent people think this is just OK. Go ahead. Put the rope around his neck with your own two hands.
Pop the gallows yourself. Take the shot. Are you so certain of your sources that you could sleep afterwards ?
He still has rights.
Those rights are NOT being upheld.
Is that ok with you ?
April 30th, 2011 at 8:32 pm
@Dreddsnik
What crimes that the government committed were uncovered through the information manning leaked?
And thank you again monkey for saying it better then I could.
April 30th, 2011 at 9:07 pm
I forgot this. Another leaker who deserves commendation is the undiscovered person/people in utah who leaked the names of 1300 illegal immigrants receiving state benefits fraudulently. They put their necks out on the line to try and stop crime that nobody else has been willing to, and for that I give them a big thumbs up.
Two people were recently suspended for it, but there have been no online petitions or protests to protect these whistle blowers. I wonder why?
April 30th, 2011 at 11:51 pm
@Dreddsnik
“Lots of press agencies and government officials are ’saying’ this, but I haven’t heard anything from Manning.”
Well you haven’t read the lamo chat logs then. Which are bradley manning himself speaking.
(1:41:12 PM) Bradley Manning: hi
(1:44:04 PM) Manning: how are you?
(1:47:01 PM) Manning: im an army intelligence analyst, deployed to eastern baghdad, pending discharge for “adjustment disorder” [. . .]
(1:56:24 PM) Manning: im sure you’re pretty busy…
(1:58:31 PM) Manning: if you had unprecedented access to classified networks 14 hours a day 7 days a week for 8+ months, what would you do?
(1:58:31 PM) Adrian Lamo [AUTO-REPLY]: Tired of being tired
(2:17:29 PM) Manning: ?
(6:07:29 PM) Lamo: What’s your MOS?
(3:16:24 AM) Manning: re: “What’s your MOS?” — Intelligence Analyst (35F)
This is him talking to a known hacker. Sounds like the beginning of one of those bank robber movies when they are discussing how the heist will go. If you read through what has been published you get a pretty good feeling for his motives. It isn’t the government saying this, it isn’t lawyers saying it, its manning himself. Both his lawyer and Glen Greenwald, one of his most vocal supporters have basically confirmed the logs are real by not disputing them. It’s as ironclad as a source can get.
He joined the military and is subject to the UCMJ. They are allowed to lock him up for 23 hours a day in his cell. They are allowed to take his clothes away if he makes statements that imply he’s thinking about suicide. I know the military prison system seems harsh to people who aren’t familiar with it, but that doesn’t mean they are violating his rights. He will get the military trial that he is entitled to.
You completely ignored Carlos Pascual getting fired, and how that was a good thing.
May 1st, 2011 at 12:00 am
For everyone else who hasn’t read the chat logs, here is bradley manning himself explaining about the great crimes that caused him to leak all this information!
(12:52:33 PM) bradass87: Hilary Clinton, and several thousand diplomats around the world are going to have a heart attack when they wake up one morning, and finds an entire repository of classified foreign policy is available, in searchable format to the public… =L
(12:53:41 PM) bradass87: s/Hilary/Hillary
(12:54:47 PM) Adrian: What sort of content?
(12:56:36 PM) Adrian: brb cigarette
(12:56:43 PM) Adrian: keep typing <3
(12:59:41 PM) bradass87: uhm… crazy, almost criminal political backdealings… the non-PR-versions of world events and crises… uhm… all kinds of stuff like everything from the buildup to the Iraq War during Powell, to what the actual content of “aid packages” is: for instance, PR that the US is sending aid to pakistan includes funding for water/food/clothing… that much is true, it includes that, but the other 85% of it is for F-16 fighters and munitions to aid in the Afghanistan effort, so the US can call in Pakistanis to do aerial bombing instead of americans potentially killing civilians and creating a PR crisis
(1:00:57 PM) bradass87: theres so much… it affects everybody on earth… everywhere there’s a US post… there’s a diplomatic scandal that will be revealed… Iceland, the Vatican, Spain,
Wow, so he felt the need to leak this information because we give pakistan money for fighters and weapons to help kill our enemies. Something we do for several other countries including israel. Quite the justification. But those backroom dealings were “almost criminal” so maybe that's what justified it!
Pathetic really.
How people who were so reasonable when it came to battling the FAC are buying into this I don't know.
May 1st, 2011 at 2:16 pm
Not buying into anything.
Not stooping to name calling or humiliation tactics either.
I am stating that I did not come into this with any conclusions already fixed in my head, as it appears others have .
Some came in here with a foregone conclusion that Manning should have already been shot.
Some came in here prepared to deride and name call those who did not have him already convicted in their mind.
As I said, are you so sure that you are willing to pull the trigger yourself ?
” You completely ignored Carlos Pascual getting fired, and how that was a good thing. ”
I didn’t ignore it, it has nothing to do with the point i’m trying to make .. i’ll try again at the risk of more names being thrown at me.
He is NOT being given the proper due process, and this has been found acceptable by so many that it is a worrisome.
That is pathetic. Seriously.
May 1st, 2011 at 9:00 pm
@Dredd
“He is NOT being given the proper due process”
Are you sure of that? Don’t forget, as a member of the army he is subject to the military justice system, which is NOT the same as the civilian one. The rules are different, from what I understand harsher than the rules for the civilian court system.
According to this – http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20058626-503544.html Manning is no longer in isolation and has been cleared for trial.
It looks like the government wants to make a go at Julian Assange. They will have a much harder time with him than with Manning, as there is actually court precedent in favor of Assange
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times_Co._v._United_States
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers#Legal_case
On June 30, 1971, the Supreme Court decided, 6–3, that the government failed to meet the heavy burden of proof required for prior restraint injunction. The nine justices wrote nine opinions disagreeing on significant, substantive matters.
Only a free and unrestrained press can effectively expose deception in government. And paramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people and sending them off to distant lands to die of foreign fevers and foreign shot and shell.
—Justice Black[17]
There is nothing in this protecting Bradley, Ellsberg got off on a technicality, essentially the judge couldn’t stomach the corruption of the Nixon administration and dropped the case. – “on May 11, 1973, after several irregularities appeared in the government’s case, including its claim that it had lost records of illegal wiretapping against Ellsberg conducted by the White House Plumbers in the contemporaneous Watergate scandal.[3] Byrne ruled: “The totality of the circumstances of this case which I have only briefly sketched offend a sense of justice. The bizarre events have incurably infected the prosecution of this case.”"
The government may very well argue that the N.Y. Times verdict does not cover such an indiscriminate publication of secret documents that Assange pushed out, it will be interesting to see where that goes, if they decide to try him.
May 2nd, 2011 at 1:53 am
People think he’s guilty because he confessed to it. What standard of evidence are you looking for? Maybe there were secretly government enforcers torturing him when he was typing to adrian lamo?
He’s subject to the UCMJ which rules are different if you were a civilian. Just because we think he has a certain right doesn’t make it so by law.
Also, I know many are upset that bradley manning is in jail and didn’t have a chance to leak details about the intelligence operation following bin laden but I am delighted.
May 4th, 2011 at 2:11 am
Now that Ben Laden is dead are they going to release Bradley manning to celebrate?
or ESLE!
May 4th, 2011 at 5:41 pm
@Predator
We will give him a respectful burial at sea after he’s found guilty of treason.
May 4th, 2011 at 11:24 pm
Tell your master that they are the traitors and that they will not have a “respectful burial at sea.” We will just wait for the trash collection.
May 4th, 2011 at 11:39 pm
Take him on a sea cruise, like Osama – ooooweee baby oooweee! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUSd_RYnxAY
May 6th, 2011 at 2:34 am
I’m also greatly disappointed that Manning wasn’t able to leak the fact we have stealth helicopters available for special ops missions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13297846
If he did, pakistan would have had time to adjust their radar and other detection systems, maybe to pick up missions like the one we ran. But that wouldn’t have hurt america in any way, the government should hide nothing!
May 15th, 2011 at 3:20 pm
@ Otis.
Get lost troll. We are not responding to your nonsense.
[Then what's this? Just a "thought". -DA]
Just tell your master that if they don’t free Manning and leave Assange and wikileaks alone they are going to get it.
We are the real patriot and the real American citizen.
You and your bosses are the traitors working for the multinational corporations and not for the US. You are the one who eventually will end up in jail for treason. Tell this to your bosses.
May 18th, 2011 at 3:14 pm
/waves to predator
I’m still here from time to time, but I think my general point on this issue has been made. We wouldn’t have tracked down and killed the worst criminal of the 21st century if the government wasn’t allowed to keep secrets and everything was leaked. I would have loved to read about how stealth helicopters were being developed, but I enjoyed reading about bin ladens death a whole lot more.
DA seems busy enough moderating the Quantserve thing so I won’t start up anymore brouhaha.
June 20th, 2011 at 10:21 am
Why of course the people don’t want war. … But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
- Hermann Göring
June 20th, 2011 at 11:57 am
he’d know
June 20th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
The US ( and most of it’s citizens ) are following his playbook, practically in order.
I would have hoped that it would take longer to forget lessons learned from history.
Of course, it’s possible that history is remembered well, and now what was once thought
evil seems like a good idea. Reading this thread would seem to indicate the latter.
Yup, he’d know.
So do some of us.
June 22nd, 2011 at 9:47 am
Knockdown one, another takes his place …
http://www.zeropaid.com/news/93827/lulzsec-to-dump-classified-government-content-onto-the-pirate-bay/
Glad to see it, keep it coming.