p2pnet - rss feed: Intelligent Design: Part II
p2pnet OT news:- Even Godless Communist China has picked up on the huge storm swirling around whether US president George W. Bush or Charles Darwin is right about how the universe, and everything, came into being.
Eleven parents with kids in the Dover Area School District in south-central Pennsylvania are suing because the school district decided to add creationism, espoused by George W. and which says the theory of evolution a la Darwin is out to lunch and that we, and all around us, were made by a supreme being.
“It’s the first movement to try to drive a wedge between students and the scientific process,” China state news agency Xinhua has Brown University’s Kenneth Miller, the first witness called for eight of the families suing the school district, saying.
But the case was “about freedom in education, not about a religious agenda,” according to Pat Gillan, the lead lawyer for the defence.
Meanwhile, “Here is our country’s leader, the champion-in-chief of educational standards, blandly equating natural science and supernatural supposition as ‘different schools of thought’,” said Hendrik Hertzberg in a New Yorker piece.
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First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win
- Mohandas Gandhi
See:-
Xinhua - Evolution court battle stages in US, September 27, 2005
supernatural supposition - Intelligent Design?, September 25. 2005
September 28th, 2005 at 2:19 pm
But the case was “about freedom in education, not about a religious agenda,” according to Pat Gillan, the lead lawyer for the defence.
The extermination of jews and slavery and wars were also about freedom. The freedom of some to do as they please to subjugate others.
Hey, why not also teach school classes on Horoscopic science as an alternative to the socual sciences and to prepare the children in the science of predicting the future. After all many leading newspapers have horoscope columns on a regular basis, meaning that this is what mainstream America (that have been educated to act as gullible citizens so they beleive everything thrown at them by the politicians and the government burocracy.
September 28th, 2005 at 2:23 pm
“act as gullible citizens so they beleive everything thrown at them by the politicians and the government burocracy”
Right, and lawyers like Mr. Gillan.
September 28th, 2005 at 2:40 pm
I’m sorry, but what does this have to do with P2P? And what does it have to do with “The original daily P2P and digital news site?”
I believe in a creator and I’m for discussion about it, but not here!
September 28th, 2005 at 4:22 pm
It’s a sad, sad, SAD day when in America (the USA) they take as the gospel truth that the DINOSAURS habited the Garden of Eden — but, they were “vegetarians”, all of them, mind you….
And let’s not forget that the earth is 6,000 years old. Some ‘hardliner’ fundamental Christians are also pushing to accept as fact that the Earth is flat and the Sun revolves around the Earth. They say that this ‘credible counter’ theory should be taught along-side with Science and Evolution.
There’s so many more STUPID ideas in “Intelligent Design” (aka Creationism) that is being ‘peddled’, I mean ‘conned’, I mean ‘propagandated’, I mean…. whatever, you know what I mean….
September 28th, 2005 at 4:29 pm
It has to do with p2p because those peddling ID (aka Creationism) are many of the same folks that peddle the one-sided-viewpoints of the RIAA / MPAA racket.
I’ll explain it nice and slow and simple for you. When you mind is filled with GARBAGE, your actions start to become IRRATIONAL and STUPID. You become extremely more likely to BELIEVE in the CRAP that the cartel spews out.
It has been a long noted observation that,
“Societies worse off ‘when they have God on their side’
“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies. ” (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1798944,00.html)
I’ll leave the rest to you…
September 28th, 2005 at 4:42 pm
You don’t know anything about God and the power of the Bible that’s why you talk like this.
September 28th, 2005 at 5:05 pm
If you look at the first sentence, you’ll see ‘OT news’. OT means Off Topic and I like to include the occasional OT item which I find interesting, and which I hope others will find interesting as well. This post is a follow-up to the first [http://p2pnet.net/story/6361].
There’s another OT post here [http://p2pnet.net/story/6370] which has nothing to do with George W, Darwin or the Universe as no one understands it : )
Cheers!
September 28th, 2005 at 6:12 pm
How can I say evolution is a religion when it teaches that there is no God? Simple, look at Buddism. Buddism teaches that there is no God, yet it is considered one of the biggest religions in the world. Evolutionism is also a religion that teaches that there is no God. Just as people can use scientific evidence to support evolutionism, people can also use scientific evidence to prove facts contained in the Bible.
I AM NOT a Christian, and I do not promote the teaching of Christianity in school, however Evolutionism has been taught as if it were proven and there is no other valid theory. There is much scientific evidence disputing evolution, yet it continues to be taught religiously in schools.
I say that if the theory of intelligent design is forbidden to be taught in schools, then so should evolutionism. The Church of Darwin is still a Church.
September 28th, 2005 at 6:19 pm
The Evolutionists ONLY want their religion taught and NO alternative theories presented. BTW I’m NOT a Bushie supporter, nor am I a Christian, however I do believe that there is much evidence against Evolutionism that is never presented in the classrom. There is scientfic and historical evidence in support of items contained in the Bible. Why is only one theory presented and all others ignored despite scientific evidence? I say teach both Evulutionism AND Intelligent Design or neither.
September 28th, 2005 at 6:47 pm
There is not a single STITCH of “evidence” for Creationism other than “it is in the bible”. The weight of evidence for the Law of Evolution is astronomical.
Evolution is based on the scientific method: it addresses all the evidence, accurately allows for prediction of circumstance, and is falsifiable.
Creationism exists only because of people who stubbornly refuse the acknowledge observable and measurable reality. It lacks even the basic requirements needed to be labeled a scientific THESIS!
The only reason Evolution is called a theory is becasue of these same willfully ignorant people. The final test of any scientific theory, to prove it a law, is that it must accurately predict the result of experimentation that can be repeated independantly. Every microbiologist with a freaking petrie dish and a few months of spare time can do this, by using environmental pressures to “evolve” bacteria! If it was not for religious fanatics, the USA would be hand-in-hand with most of the rest of the industrialized world: i.e. calling Evolution a LAW rather than a THEORY.
September 28th, 2005 at 6:59 pm
It’s not news without the facts. Sorry, brother, but this is opinion!
September 28th, 2005 at 6:59 pm
You don’t know anything about God and the power of the Bible that’s why you talk like this.
Thee is not much to know. If anything was really known there would be no disagreement between all the religions. As it is, each religion “knows” the truth. It’s just that they cannot explan and prove anything to the other religions.
And the intelligent designer does not want to show its face so all disagreements about what it is are ended. A few few future wars may then be avoided. Actually there is nothing intelligent about how the intelligent designer works.
Oh yea, God works in mysterious ways!
September 28th, 2005 at 8:05 pm
Religious beleifs should STAY AWAY FROM SCHOOLS!
Evolution is FACT, its a SCIENCE! Even if its a theory, its still a scientific one! Therefor it should be taught in school, because its the only NON religious idea of where we came from…
YOU CAN”T TEACH RELIGIOUS STUFF IN SCHOOL…
WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO REMEMBER…
September 28th, 2005 at 8:08 pm
This is all because stupid religious fuckheads, claim evolution is a religion… its not! its just a fact! its what really happened… so it should be taught in school…
On the other hand your religious beleifs to where you came from, shouldn’t touch the schools with a 500ft pole… <_<
September 28th, 2005 at 8:12 pm
No! its not a religion… jackass…
Evolution is a scientific fact! which should be taught in schools… where as creationism… is a religion… and I dont care what it is… NO RELIGION should be taugh in schools! >= (
This is another one of those arguements that just as retarted as not allowing gay marrage…
Evolution is FACT… And there is NOTHING wrong with gay people, let them marry!
END OF DISCUSSION…
September 28th, 2005 at 8:30 pm
“How can I say evolution is a religion when it teaches that there is no God?”
The theory of evolution is just that, a theory. I’ve never seen anywhere in that theory anything about God not existing, and even if there was, you’re perfectly free to make up as many of your own theories as you want. Besides, how do we know evolution isn’t all part of some all powerful beings grand design? Evolution has plenty of evidence for those willing to open their eyes, more so than any of the multitudes of various faiths out there have. Personally I tend to believe in both, in my own way (mostly because of butterflies, but I won’t go into that here), and don’t see it as a black and white issue that can never be reconciled like the majority out there seem to believe. Honestly, I’ve never understood humanities perpencity to make everything black and white and unreconcileable. Evolution is just a very tiny piece of the big puzzle that is life and the universe, and one that is itself currently very incomplete I think, so there is really no point in arguing like mad men about stuff like this when the whole picture can’t be seen, and likely never will be in our lifetime. In other words, believe what ever you want to, leave everyone else alone to learn for themselves what the meaning of life is, and just be happy with yourself and your own life. I mean, just because one person may be a miserable wreck doesn’t give them or anyone else the right to make everyone else feel miserable (misery loves company, another of humanities wonderful foibles that it can’t seem to overcome). If you can’t figure out what the meaning of life is for yourself, then that is not everyone elses problem I’m afraid. Yes, I do know what it is, and no I can’t say what it is. Reason one is because people would simply think I’m a crackpot and not believe me so there isn’t much point, but reason two, which is the more important one, is that it’s meaningless if your simply told. Part of the point of existence is to figure out for ourselves what it is and enrich our lives in the process. It’s the only thing that makes the pain and suffering of existence slightly more bearable (and trust me, at the moment I know pain and suffering, as does my wife) and gives us hope to go on. Without it there would be no point to it all, and I refuse to believe in that which is the alternative.
-K
September 28th, 2005 at 9:10 pm
If you don’t believe in evolution, which as the above poster mentioned is observable and demonstratable time and time again through scientific method and thus requires no faith to believe in, then you’re not allowed to believe in things like genetics either, and all the myriad of diseases that arise from that. You simply can’t have one “belief” without the other. Those that believe in evolution know it exists because we also know that DNA exists and makes up all living things, and that it’s like a kind of infinite combination lock. It’s also easily destroyed and/or reconfigured through an infinite number of environmental pressures. Take a simple one, such as raditation for example. Pretty easy to observe over the short term what happens when you’re exposed to various kinds of radiation for too long. Just look at the early adopters of the x-ray machine (shudder). Evolution is the means with which all life on earth is able to adapt to an ever changing environment. If living things didn’t evolve to adapt to their envrionment, they would not survive for very long. The biggest problem with observing it is that it’s such a slow process and takes thousands of years. This makes it hard to observe. This is why scientists rely on the fossil records, as well as things that multiply and adapt quickly because they have such short lifespans, such as microbial organisms.
September 28th, 2005 at 9:12 pm
Seek and you shall find, my friend. Seek and you shall find.
Ask all the questions you desire, the Bible tells you that. But with your statements above you are just assuming. You have not even begun to ask.
God does work in mysterious ways, for if you knew it all, you would be God. But if you are curious you should at least read the Bible and many of the mysteries will be unravelled. Furthermore, it can’t all be proven for you because in the end it is a test of faith. Even if God appeared before you as He did to the Israelites which He saved from slavery in Egypt, there is still a chance you will not believe, much like many of them did not.
Organized religion has also done a fine job to deter many non believers. With all the different Christian sects alone, one would not know where to start… which one to choose.
Seems that the devil is messing with us more than we like to think, stirring up the pot any chance he can get.
Humans have a hard time breaking away from traditions for fear of offending their family and peers. If they are truly interested in God, and if they have faith, they should be more concerned with offending God.
Of course, the above will be ridiculed by those who don’t have faith.
It is also amazing that so many people choose to disect God and the Bible without even having a clue of the word. Yet these same people have faith in evolution and do not question it whatsoever.
I find it take greater faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in God.
TV
September 28th, 2005 at 9:20 pm
Read Darwin’s theory for yourself, before you blindly support it. There are gaping holes in his theory that to this day remain unexplained. Scientists simply conjecture at how it can work, but it does not mean that it is proven.
Even so, just look at the language used to describe it… “Darwin’s Theory of Evolution”. Look up the word ‘theory’ in the dictionary to get a better idea that a theory does not mean an exact science.
TV
September 28th, 2005 at 9:33 pm
The earth was NEVER described as flat in the Bible, that was humans’ misinterpretation. And don’t forget that from our perspective, the sun does appear to revolve around the earth. We do after all live here on earth, not in outer space.
Perhaps the theory of evolution is the real propaganda here. It seems to have you convinced!
TV
September 28th, 2005 at 9:57 pm
Just because you can CONTROL a particular experiment in a petrie dish does not mean it applies to all of life around us.
Likewise, scientist have found ways to repeatedly cure cancer in lab animals, does this mean they can conclude it will hold true for all species including humans?
TV
September 28th, 2005 at 10:07 pm
How’s this for proof?
There are over 280,000 well documented fossils to date. Not one of them acts as a shapshot to shows an ‘evolutionary’ transformation between species.
TV
September 28th, 2005 at 11:17 pm
Religion IF, taught in school should ONLY be taught in religious class. And if that is the case, then BUDDHISM, DAOISM (not a religion, but cool!), HINDUISM, ANIMALISM, SPIRITUALISM, what-ever-ism should ALSO be taught along side with fair representation — just so the student is more informed about world beliefs and able to distinguish good versus NON-SENSE ideas!
September 29th, 2005 at 12:21 am
“There are over 280,000 well documented fossils to date. Not one of them acts as a shapshot to shows an ‘evolutionary’ transformation between species.”
This is why I said in another post that, while I agree that evolution is an observable phoenomenon, and exists for a very good reason (thank God hehe), what we know about it is probably not only a very tiny slice of the overall picture, but that this particular slice is probably also very incomplete. In other words, there is no particularly good reason to be arguing over anything having to do with genesis and evolution (and a ton of other silly things). Everyone should be free to make their own educated decision about what they wish to believe, and that’s perfectly fine with me since there may be a good chance that we’ll never really know the whole picture. As long as people aren’t torturing and killing others in the name of their beliefs, or trying to force others to believe what they believe, I’m happy and don’t care what other people think. Sure, it would be nice to know since to know our past is to know our future, but I think knowing most likely would not solve any of our problems. In other words, in the grand scheme of things, it most likely doesn’t matter all that much either. After all, life is just too short to get caught up squabbling over semantics and differing opinions. Heck, you can come up with an infinite number of ideologies and theories, and in the the end all of them will likely be wrong. We all may have to face the possibility that it’s simply not for us to know. This is exactly why I am so fond of the following from Shakespere’s play, Hamlet; “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
September 29th, 2005 at 12:25 am
Its not just Darwin’s theory that I support… Its the general theory that we developed from Apes, as so many other species developed from other species long ago… I dont give a fuk about Darwin… I just care that the TRUE FACT that we came from animals isn’t thrown out, because of stupid religious beleifs…
And dont give me that “we dont have proof” crap… there is plenty of solid proof out there that we evolved from apes…
These days, we know a lot more than Darwin new… I dont care about darwin’s theory… I care about OUR MODERN day understanding of evolution! =P
Fuck theories, Evolution is a FACT… a SCIENTIFIC FACT!
RELIGIOUS BELIEFS SHOULD NEVER BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL (with the exception of religion classes) Evolution is NOT a religion, its a Science, WHICH BELONGS IN SCIENCE CLASS!
There is ABSOLUTLY NO QUESTION HERE! Creationism or intellegent design is RELIGION, And EVOLUTION IS SCIENCE!
Science = school… Religion = CHURCH…. END OF DESCUSSION.
September 29th, 2005 at 12:29 am
THERE IS A LOT MORE PROOF OUT THERE THAT EVOLUTIONS IS FACT…
THERE IS PLENTY OF SOLID PROOF!
Religious ideas will NEVER HAVE ANY PROOF OF BEING REAL… THEY ARE JUST THE MADE UP IDEAS OF A FEW MORONIC PEOPLE IN THE DARK AGES OF HUMANITY…
September 29th, 2005 at 12:38 am
“It is also amazing that so many people choose to disect God and the Bible without even having a clue of the word. Yet these same people have faith in evolution and do not question it whatsoever.”
Isn’t that the very definition of faith though? To follow blindly, without question, on the presumtion that you and you alone are both right and righteous, and that everyone else is wrong? That is why the terms “sheep” and “flock” are such apt terms and used so often to describe followers of any religion in my opinion. It’s a dangerous thing to not question any authority figure, especially since humans by nature are much more compliant than they realize. Personally I refuse to follow any organized religion on the simple basis that their actions speak much louder than the words they preach. While religious fanatics may think so, this life choice does not mean I’m a Godless or immoral person or anything, just that I choose to make my own decisions and follow my own heart. Those who wish to control others may not like that, but thankfully this is the reality we enjoy today. I hope it stays that way for as long as possible, even though I know deep down that nothing lasts forever. The only thing certain in life is change after all.
September 29th, 2005 at 4:48 am
you admit that your grand grand grand…father used to ape
as you wish.Don’t forget to include his picture with a banana on your first page of your family tree album:)
September 29th, 2005 at 10:25 am
that’s what’s great about a dichotomized religion. the “right being” is all powerful, all knowing, and all seeing. the “wrong being” plants evidence (evolution! oedipus!) to trick us into denying the existence of the “right being.”
September 29th, 2005 at 12:37 pm
No you will be ridiculed by those who have a brain and the ability to think for themselves you utter moron.
I find it utterly amazing that in modern day society people still claim to believe in God (or A God) it is absurd. You live utterly blinkered lives and I think it would better if religion was outlawed and all religious zealots shot for being stupid in the head.
I normally believe in people having the right to an opinion and the right to faith, but the older I get the less tolerant I get towards the frelling morons.
They are an anethma to society and should be irradicated. Religion has no place in society and in my opinion, it never has, it is nothing less than an excuse people use instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.
September 29th, 2005 at 1:05 pm
Is what you are saying that humans evolved from dinosaurs?
There are plenty of “snapshots” found and still out there, but with limited founding for archeological digs they are hard to find… but there is enough money for oil digs…
September 29th, 2005 at 5:16 pm
“They are an anethma to society and should be irradicated. Religion has no place in society and in my opinion, it never has, it is nothing less than an excuse people use instead of taking responsibility for their own actions.”
I much liked that quote above of yours. While what you say may come off as a little too ‘rash’ for some, what you said is very valid. Religion, if you look carefully at it, has been used historically (as it is also now used) as a TOOL to CONTROL the masses — to control the behaviour of women — to control the thoughts of society — to make it easier to have POWER OVER them.
Faith == Blind devotion
is very dangerous. If you want to “believe” in something, at least have SOME EVIDENCE or LOGIC in that belief. Don’t just believe in something just for the sake of it — especially when your beliefs are RETARDED, ILLOGICAL, FALSE, and STUPID!
And this is why the all Creationism push by the major MONO-THEISTIC (One “God”) “Religion” is so dangerous. I come from a Christian background, and I must say, day-after-day it is become more of a PURE CULT! That’s right, a CULT.
September 29th, 2005 at 6:12 pm
HAHAHA, that’s a good one. Hey, maybe that’s why they call it a family tree. Monkeys and apes swing in them!
TV
September 29th, 2005 at 7:22 pm
The reason why the Theory of Evolution SHOULD be taught in schools and that Creationism should NOT be taught in schools is, in fact, the separation of church and state, and no matter how much smoke is blown on the subject, it is clearly evident that Evolutionism espouses no religion, yet Creationism is the direct result of religious belief.
Evolutionism does not establish then promulgate a set of laws or rules to live by. It is generally agreed in the scientific community that Evolutionism is, indeed, a “theory” and not a proven fact, insofar as certain aspects of it have not yet been proven by scientific method. For example, Atomic Theory, for the moment, remains just exactly that: THEORY. That does not mean that atomic bombs do not explode. But it DOES mean that Atomic Theory does not preach a code of laws or a set of belief tenets.
If Creationism were to be taught in schools, do you suppose it would stop at the words, “and on the seventh day, God rested”? I highly doubt it.
The difference between science and religion can be distinctly delineated. Science is the objective search for answers to the way things work in our universe, the attempt to prove things by empirical, observable phenomena. Religion is the forcible acceptance of a set of subjective beliefs, mostly unproven and mostly unprovable, and the mandatory adherence to commandments, which might or might not have socially redeeming values.
This whole debate surrounding whether or not “Intelligent Design” should be given “equal time” with the Theory of Evolution in our schools, is just one more attempt by the fanatical right wing fundamentalists to force their life-styles and beliefs onto the rest of society, whether it likes it or not. It is fascism, pure and simple. Like fascism, it uses the principles of propaganda to advance its cause, and whenever challenged, it uses lies, distraction, and distortion to divert attention from fact and reality. If all else fails, it uses loud noise, disruption, violence, fear, threats, and brutal suppression of the very set of laws it purports to believe in.
There should be no place in our schools for the dissemination of such horror. Despite loud denials, religion is a hiding place for people who are incapable or unwilling to think for themselves. The Bible says: “On faith and faith alone shall ye believe”. How can anyone in his right mind accept everything he is told without question. Or accuse and condemn a fellow human being, having been commanded to love one’s neighbor or having been admonished to forgive those who do evil against him, not once but innumerable times.
(And people wonder why I’m against religion…)
What does all of this have to do with P2P? I’m not going to belabor that point, but I will say that this has been one of the liveliest post exchanges we’ve seen around here. It must have some merit.
September 29th, 2005 at 11:35 pm
Good one about family trees, heh. It’s strange how some people find such ideas offensive though. Personally I don’t have a problem with the notion that I might be decended from an ape-like decendant. In fact, it’s kind of nice to enterain the fact that at some point in our history we may have actually been much more civilized than we tend to be now, and that the only thing that was slung around back then was harmless old poo lol.
September 30th, 2005 at 8:22 pm
Who is this “TV” dude, is he/she some kind of Tele-evangelist?! And it’s spelled “petri”…. geez, get a high-school education (preferably one that doesn’t espound BS).
September 30th, 2005 at 8:24 pm
TV, take your head out of your ass and go back to school. It’s remarkable you do not even have the BASIC understanding of science and the world. How old are you?! Two? Three?
September 30th, 2005 at 8:25 pm
….enough said.
October 12th, 2005 at 4:35 pm
“if” it all started with the “Big Bang”
You must believe that everything has come from nothing…
and this you regard as fact… a creationist would say “YOU have GREAT FAITH!”
your friend,
Charlie